Comments

Gallup Poll on Electoral College — 40 Comments

  1. Polls to eliminate the electoral college are like polls to support national health care. The devil’s in the details. Just what would it be replaced with? A popular vote alternative has to consider if plurality voting ought to be sufficient to choose a President.

  2. National popular vote with irv / rcv. Elect federal offices with a separate federal voter registration that automatically includes all state registered voters and any adult citizen known to exist by state governments or the national government. Automatic vote by mail option with a ballot mailed to every voter, as well as an in person voting option. No felon disenfranchisement including during the period of incarceration. Any president who refuses to leave office to be disemboweled alive on national tv.

  5. I wonder what the results would be if it was weighted by the number of electoral votes each respondent’s state has

  6. @ Thisbewut…:

    Your post makes my point. Every detail you propose is a stumbling block to some constituency.

  7. And another thing:

    Let’s suppose we had direct national popular voting for President with nation-wide ranked choice voting. Have people considered the logistical issues with transferring millions of votes on subsequent rounds across the entire country? It will be just a challenge in Maine. Just watch.

  8. ONE election day — NOOO caucuses, primaries and conventions —

    EQUAL nom pets.

    ALL mail ballots — OR, WA, etc survive.

    RCV done now in SF, CA etc.

    Condorcet = rcv/irv done right.

    Child’s play for any super-computer — used to make drugs, etc.

    Regimes survive.

  9. No logistical issues. It’s easy. But you do need to get rid of the electoral college. Make it retroactive so as to nullify the trump and first term shrub presidencies along with all their judicial and executive appointments and executive orders.

  10. There is a minority rule regime that has gamed the rules of gerrymandering, voter and vote suppression, senate, electoral college, presidency and judicial appointment to cement emerging dictatorship in concert and collusion with foreign dictatorships and pro dictatorship movements globally.

  11. “No logistical issues. It’s easy. But you do need to get rid of the electoral college. Make it retroactive so as to nullify the trump and first term shrub presidencies along with all their judicial and executive appointments and executive orders.”

    Good luck with that.

  12. 1775-1789 STATE/USA hacks copied the ROT in the UK regime–

    LEGIS GERRYMANDERS, GERMAN/POLAND KINGS EC, APPOINTED HACK JUDGES.

    CONDORCET IN 1780S — NO TECH COMPUTERS.

    PR IN 1820-1845 — TOO LATE.

  13. There are 5 candidates for president in Maine. Given the possibility that a voter may rank all, 4, 3, 2, or just vote for 1 the number of possible combinations is 325, which is ludicrously easy for a computer

  16. @ Brandon Lyon:

    Yes, within one state, RCV can be managed by computer easily enough (altho, even here, don’t be surprised that someone requests a hand recount in Maine), imagine the logistics that would be required for a nation-wide popular vote by RCV for President. You may say: “Of course there would be one centralized national tabulation” but I wouldn’t bet on it. Traditional political state-power jealousy may require a distributed vote reporting system.

  17. Brandon – ludicrously easy in terms of computation power, yes. But also ludicrously easy for a programmer to botch either intentionally or purely through incompetence.

    Also, there are a lot of special cases to handle if you’re allowing paper ballots. Having been a counter, I can assure you that some voters will:

    – Put down a 1 and a 5 but fail to fill in 2,3,4.
    – Put down a 1 and try to mark all the others as 5.
    – Rank them all as 5.
    – Rank them all as 1.
    – Make random scratch marks that aren’t even in the boxes/circles.
    – Etc

    And we’re not even considering the huge number (I predict 2% at least) who get confused over whether 5 is best or worst.

    Having said that, it’s a great system if you have reasonably educated, intelligent voters.

  18. Bottom half average IQ of 2020 voters ???

    Reason why about half of age qualified persons do NOT register and vote ???

    How many New Age skooool grad-U-8’s can NOT read a ballot and ballot instructions ???

    Thus — PR – CANDIDATE rank order lists of other candidates — pending Condorcet.

  19. Most people are extremely ignorant when it comes to history, including the history of their own country and its laws, and philosophy, so I would not put a lot of stock in this. I would consider this to be yet another example of why many people are too stupid and/or ignorant to vote. The only people who should be able to vote in this country are people who don’t receive any specific benefits from the state, and who can pass a test on what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution say.

  20. About 40-45 pct of adults in USA get $$$ from govts.

    Very near the super-crisis breaking point — 1929-2020 — mere 91 years.

    Higher worse pct in Europe.

    GET $$$ LOOT – from ***NET*** TAX SLAVES / moron govt creditors.

    Many looters vote in extremist primaries for more looter minority rule gerrymander hacks.
    —-
    PR and APPV
    TOTSOP

  21. eeyn — see rcv rules in SF, CA, etc.

    obvious extreme case –

    ONLY sequential votes – 1 to N are *legal*

    1, 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4-5

    ALL others illegal – NO guessing games, NO fill gaps, etc.

  22. “The only people who should be able to vote in this country are people who don’t receive any specific benefits from the state” – So no one over 65 since they’re receiving welfare payments in the form of Social Security, no 9/11 responders who received payouts from the federal government, etc

  23. The ignorance of any voter is relative, not absolute. I must admit, often times I am ignorant of the personalities, qualifications, and positions of some of the candidates for lower office on my ballot, and often blank a vote for such offices. Some people are, like Socrates, wise enough to know their own ignorance, and not vote st all. At the least, no one should be compelled to vote for this reason. In a sense, those who choose to vote are often the most knowledgeable and motivated. But, even so, no one has perfect knowledge of every candidate and issue on his or her ballot. Democracy, at its best, is a summary of the community’s accumulated knowledge.

  25. I am suggesting that people who live off of?, or otherwise receive handouts from, the state, as well as people who are CLUELESS about this country’s founding documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, have no business voting.

    This country is NOT a pure democracy, it is supposed to be a constitutional republic which uses some democratic procedures. Pure democracy leads to tyranny of the majority, also known as mob rule. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for diner. Democracy is the god that failed.

    People who have a conflict of interest in a court case are already barred from serving on a jury, so people who have a conflict of interest because they receive “goodies” from the state, or work for or contract with the state, should also be barred from voting in elections, or donating to political campaigns. People who are ignorant about what the Declaration of Independence and Constitution say, either because they are lazy, or stupid, also have no business voting.

  27. Andy —

    Current USA and State regimes –

    TYRANNY of the commie/fascist MINORITIES —

    1/2 or less votes x 1/2+1 of rigged gerrymander areas = 1/4 or less CONTROL.

    Much, much, much worse primary math – esp with no incumbent.

    Est 5-15 pct REAL minority rule — by those NET TAX LOOTERS.

    GERRYMANDER HACKS HAVE INCREASED GOVT SPENDING FROM 10 TO ABOUT 40 PCT OF GDP IN 1929-2020.

    DEFICIT SPENDING ABOUT 25 PERCENT MORE THAN GOVT REVENUE PER YEAR — NOW ABOUT $$$ 42 TRILLION DEBT – ALL GOVTS IN USA

    ABOUT 2 PLUS PCT INFLATION NONSTOP SINCE 1965 = ONGOING DESTRUCTION OF PAPER SAVINGS OF LOWER AND MIDDLE CLASSES.
    —-
    PR = MAJORITY RULE = DEMOCRACY — to END the 1775-2020 R-O-T.

    SEE FEDERALIST NO. 10.

  28. So what about people who own stock in government contractors or get a retirement from government or government contractors? What about their spouses, parents, kids, siblings, neighbors and friends? If you think some people are pure you’re delusional. We are all victims and victimizers at the same time.

    Aside from being completely politically untenable and logically flawed your proposals suffer from additional problems. For example, the literacy test for voting proposal suffers from an implementation issue even if you think it’s a good idea in theory. That is, the existing government gets to decide who passes the test. If your proposal is ever implemented, I suspect you’d be among the first to lose your voting rights because what you think the constitution and declaration of independence say won’t come close to matching the official interpretation.

    And then if you got past that hurdle you’d have to look at how it would just further tilt an already tilted system to create a more entrenched class system of haves and have nots based on unequal educational opportunities and incentives stemming from past decades and centuries of oppression and discrimination and its lingering and intersecting ripple effects today.

  30. If the democratic argument for direct election, why do its advocates stop there? The Senate and the House could just as easily be elected by proportional division of the same national electorate you’ve just created. Direct election– and recall– of the Supreme Court as well.

    Many states have the last. Iowa’s voters threw out three state supreme court justices in 2010. Why couldn’t Americans have done the same to Anthony Kennedy in 2016? And to Harry Blackmun and Earl Warren?

  31. I see Andy can’t address my argument so imaginary ad hom speculation is the deflection of the moment.

  32. @ Andy:

    Commentators since de Tocqueville have pointed out that over time democracy succumbs to the tendency of net beneficiaries voting themselves more and more benefits. However, once the process has started, it becomes almost impossible to disenfranchise the beneficiaries.

    IMO, a more fruitful course of action is to enhance the political power of net benefactors (i.e. taxpayers), as a counterweight. This can be done in several ways by expanding the Revolutionary principle of “No taxation without representation” :
    1. Allow people who own property in more than one community to vote in all communities in which they are taxed
    2. Allow people who work and pay taxes in more than one state to vote in every state in which they pay taxes.
    3. Allow legal resident aliens who work and pay taxes to vote.
    4. Allow corporations that pay taxes to make direct political contributions.

  33. Current – ALL larger legis bodies are ANTI-Democracy minority rule gerrymander systems –

    copied from Brit House of Commons rot in 1200s.
    —-
    PR legis bodies — ALL votes count

    AppV – NONPARTISAN execs/judics

  34. Walter, you are correct that implementing the restrictions on voting I am suggesting in the present era would be difficult, if not impossible. This is something which should have been implemented in the 1700’s or 1800’s. If the current government collapses, or the country breaks up, perhaps this is something which could be implemented at that point.

    As for your suggestions 1-4, I do not agree with any of them, especially allowing foreign nationals, even if they are in the country legally, to vote, and allowing corporations, which are legal fictions created by the state, and which are granted special privileges by the state, to vote.

  35. Olde rich folks limited voting got wiped out in 1840-1842 Dorr’s War in small little RI.

    Result –

    1844 RI Const — last State to dump its olde 1600’s colonial charter.

    BUT – ANTI-Democracy minority rule gerrymanders in ALL States from Day 1 in 1776 CONTINUE.
    —
    PR and AppV — pending Condorcet.
    TOTSOP

  37. Wz

    Are some taxes more equal than others? Would you endeavor to keep track of how many states people pay sales taxes, motel taxes, dining taxes, gasoline taxes, etc in? Or how many states corporations they own stock or businesses they own or co own pay taxes in?

  38. I also disagree with 1 thru 4, except that I do agree that political contributions should not be limited in any way. But I don’t support thing that to taxes or voting rights per se.

  40. walterziobro – If you believe a plurality is insufficient to elect a president, one alternative could be to tally votes by age (18, 19, 20…etc.) and allocate electoral votes for each age proportional to the total population of the country. Someone would get a majority by that method of tallying almost as certainly as one of the two major parties would get a majority of EC under the present method.

    But wait…that’s absurd isn’t it?

    Of course it is.

    So is requiring the artifice of a 270 majority by allocating electors among the 50 states and D.C. to ensure and validate a “majority” president, particularly since several presidents have been “minority” presidents based on total popular votes nationwide.

    You’re clinging to a quaint, creaking anachronism that was created primarily for reasons not even mentioned in any of the foregoing posts.

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