On June 26, the U.S. House passed HR 51, the bill to make almost all of Washington, D.C., a state. The vote was 232-180. This is the first time such a bill has ever passed either house of Congress. One Democrat voted “no”, and Libertarian Justin Amash voted “no.” All Republicans voted “no”.
I would have voted no, too.
I think it would require a constitutional amendment to allow the District to become a state.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2020/06/26/house-moves-approve-dc-statehood-senate-gop-opposes/112022106/
House adopts bill to make DC 51st state; Senate GOP opposes
Matthew Daly, Associated Press Published 2:30 p.m. ET June 26, 2020 | Updated 2:54 p.m. ET June 26, 2020
Washington – The Democratic-controlled House approved a bill Friday to make the District of Columbia the 51st state, saying Congress has both the moral obligation and constitutional authority to ensure that the city’s 700,000 residents are allowed full voting rights, no longer subject to “taxation without representation.”
Lawmakers approved the bill, 232-180, largely along party lines, marking the first time a chamber of Congress has passed a D.C. statehood bill. The legislation now goes to the Republican-controlled Senate, where it faces insurmountable opposition from GOP leaders.
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RED Donkey gerrymander communists trying to get more RED Donkey gerrymander communists into the ANTI-Democracy minority rule gerrymander Congress.
Next on RED Donkey communist list — Puerto Rico, etc.
Bob, what part of the Constitution do you think stands in the way?
I would have voted yes.
Article 1, Section 8, Clause 17 of the Constitution for the united States is the primary source as to why a section of land was carved out to be the “seat of government”. If D.C. is too large, then the residential land needs to become part of Virginia or Maryland, depending on the location. Here is the aforementioned section: 17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
Article 1, section 8, doesn’t interfere with action by congress to shrink the physical size of the “seat of government”.
Give it back to Maryland.
That ship sailed with the 19th century.
Please GOD have the House vote to ban the Republican Party!!!
Earlier added ROT —
23 Amdt in 1961 — Min 3 EC votes for Devil City AND 538 EVEN EC votes —
possible 269-269 TIE and even more Civil WAR.
Too many really EVIL stupid Elephants to count.
For newer folks —
2019-2020 USA GOVT MINORITY RULE GERRYMANDER MATH, V.3, 5 FEB 2020
ANTI-DEMOCRACY LOWLITES —
A. 30.3 PERCENT OF THE VOTERS ELECTED 218 LOW D USA REPS OF 435 TOTAL IN 2018.
B. 19.2 PERCENT OF THE VOTERS ELECTED 50 LOW R USA SENATORS OF 100 TOTAL IN 2014-2018.
C. 25.7 PERCENT OF THE VOTERS ELECTED R PREZ TRUMP IN 2016 – 270 OF 306 OF 538 ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES.
*******
DATA- FEC, FEDERAL ELECTIONS, 2014, 2016, 2018
https://transition.fec.gov/general/library.shtml
2017 AL – SEN SPECIAL
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Jones_(politician)
EST TOTAL VOTES
http://www.electproject.org
—
IE since day 1 —
Govts of, by and for the monarchs/oligarchs —
regardless of ALL goo-goo MORONS in their millions.
Part of 1801 original DC south of Potomac River given back to VA in 1845.
Can do same for north part to MD.
New DC = Congress bldgs , White House , SCOTUS bldg ??? —
ALL nonresidents – 23 Amdt DEAD !!!
Too difficult for MORON Elephants to detect.
This is not the 1800s. Move on to the 20th century even if you can’t deal with the 21st.
The Republicans missed an opportunity here to create a new red state.
Yeah, they don’t have the votes to add Russia or Saudi Arabia as states yet.
Reagan had a much more creative mind that Trump. Trump and his followers are largely reactionary. Reagan would have gotten something out of this. The Republicans have really gone downhill with Trump.
This will just screw up the flag something fierce! Gotta bring in Puerto Rico, Virgin Islands, Guam and Micronesia as well to make 11 rows of 5 stars each. Let’s focus on the REALLY important stuff, people!
52 is a divisible number. 4 rows of 7 and 4 rows of 6 sounds ok. Dc and pr are the only ones with sufficient population. And don’t worry about it screwing the republicans, they will either paint themselves into a corner as a permanent minority party or change their coalition soon. The good news for them is they have made these kinds of adjustments in their issues mix and base before, as have democrats. The other good news for them is that as demographic segments gain wealth and power over time, at least in recent decades, they tend to become less prone to vote for democrats. So don’t count the republicans out yet, but do count them out soon if they keep doubling down on appealing only to overwhelmingly white voters, which is a shrinking demographic as a percentage of the population regardless of whether they add dc and pr as states or admit new immigration or not.
DC as a state is a bad idea. The founders were wise to not want a city state for the national government. Maybe give some of DC back to Maryland, but don’t make DC a state.
@ Michael That’s so. There was once a time when Republicans distaned Catholics and Jews, but now many of those vote Republican. Instead of taking a reactionary attitude against immigrants, they ought to be cultivating support among entrepreneurial Asians and conservative Latinos. As I have said, Reagan looked forward, but Trump looks back.
Why would it be any better if it was part of Maryland? DC residents are far from all being federal employees and there are plenty of federal employees in the MD and VA suburbs, as well as scattered all over the country. Maryland has shown no interest in taking on DC and there is no movement in DC to join Maryland. They want to be a separate state. It has overwhelming approval in the district. Whatever you think may have been stopped by not allowing DC residents to be fully represented in congress would not be stopped if they became part of Maryland.
If DC was part of MD, there would not be two US Senators added. Given the general voting patterns of most of the people who inhabit DC, not giving them two US Senators would be a good thing. Also, having two US Senators representing a city whose main economy comes from the US federal government, would not be good.
That’s petty and stupid. Republicans are not better than Democrats. Even if you believe they are better on some things they are clearly worse on others. DC’s economy includes lots of people who live in the suburbs, so it’s hypocritical to say MD and VA can have senators and DC can’t. And two seats out of 100 are why you want to relegate hundreds of thousands of people to second class citizen status? If the Republicans keep making it look like they don’t really want equal rights for Black or Latino people they will keep getting few of their votes and then they will lose a lot more than just two senate seats. Think about what it tells people that the Republicans want to keep majority black DC and majority Latino PR from becoming states. If you think a lot of Black and Latino people in other states, and not coincidentally a lot of white people too, don’t see it or don’t get the message you deserve to lose.
I wonder if “Mike” and “Michael” are Paul posting under fake names again.
Nope, just Mike. I guess that means you have run out of any attempts at making a logical argument. But that’s to be expected since you have none.
The people of DC will be represented if they become part of Maryland. The culture is very similar, and remember modern DC was formed from that state. DC also has no other cities in it, unlike the states and even territories. That’s making Chicago or New York City its own state. That would give a specific city extra power by way of two Senators.
The United States is the only nation in the world that denies voting rights to its adult citizens who live in the national capital city. That is an overwhelming human rights violation.
D.C. just happens to be the only jurisdiction in the U.S. that has a black majority. D.C.’s treatment is also a stunning human rights violation, and it highlights the poor respect for equality that plagues our nation.
There are no special rules about how many cities a state may contain, in order to be a state. D.C. has greater population than Wyoming and Vermont. It is blaringly wrong to treat the people of D.C. the way we currently treat it. “Equality” is supposed to be an American virtue.
There are entire nations that are only composed of a single city, namely Vatican City and Monaco.
Maryland doesn’t want D.C. and D.C. doesn’t want to be part of Maryland. Why should two separate jurisdictions be compelled to merge, against their own wishes, in order to enjoy the fundamental right of a free nation?
It’s not like making NY or Chicago separate because they are already part of a state. DC is not. Neither the people of Maryland nor the people of DC are demonstrating interest interest in making DC a part of Maryland. As far as culture similar that depends on where in Maryland. If you stay in PG or Montgomery, or right around Baltimore, yeah. If you go any distance from the beltway they are not all that much like DC. Tell someone on the Eastern Shore or far west or south Maryland how much like DC they are. Even a lot of people in the suburbs or Baltimore have zero interest in DC being added to Maryland. The population of DC is bigger than several existing states so what difference does it make if it has other cities? It’s not part of any other state and doesn’t want to be nor does any other state want it to join and that approval would have to be sought. It sounds to me like these arguments for having DC in Maryland when neither one wants it are a disingenuous or naive way to sideline the movement for statehood, which the people of DC and many others who agree with them are in fact in. Can you point to any existing movement in DC and Maryland for them to unite as opposed to suggestions from those outside the District or Maryland?
Great points Richard Winger.
It sounds like Winger is an SJW. People in DC have had voting rights since the late 50s or early 60s. They elect their own government (mayor, city council) just like Guam, etc do.
DC was explicitly created to not have the federal district in a state.
I want to have my own state, am I allowed to?
Baltimore Sun, which last time I checked was in Maryland. Why doesn’t SJW Winger post this? He doesn’t post counter arguments.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/readers-respond/bs-ed-washington-letter-20160426-story.html
Phil sounds like you are using sjw as a pejorative like a person who can’t get two neurons to fire. Congress circumscribed local dc voting rights all the time and voters there do not have the same representation in congress that all other voters of states do. Yet they have to pay federal taxes and deal with federal mandates, paperwork and prohibitions like everyone else and then on top of that have congress interfere in local affairs. Sounds like colonialism because it is, plus it has a distinct racial element given the population of dc.
Yeah one state having too much power was more of a concern when there were 13, far less so when there are 50 and it would be one of the smallest although not the smallest in population and the smallest in land area. Doesn’t really sound like it would have too much power compared with other states. So the 1700s concerns don’t have much to do with now. It’s just another excuse to have second class citizens and send the message to the whole country and world the us will not allow a black majority state.
So are people of the Virgin Islands and such second class citizens? If so, why aren’t you advocating statehood for them?
The only people that see race in this are the SJW types that are triggered by everything. I provide solid arguments, plus a letter from an actual Maryland resident (which you claim none exist), and you dismiss them instantly. Sounds like you are the one lacking brain cells.
It sounds like you are the one who is triggered Phil. I did not say that zero such people exist in dc or Maryland but that there is no such movement there. The fact that you had to go look for a letter to the editor from 2016 only proves that point.
Are the people of the Virgin Islands second class citizens? If so, why aren’t you advocating statehood for them?
There is nothing wrong with DC going back to Maryland, as the Virginia portion did. The actual government part can stay as a district. Do you know your history? Obviously not.
Vi and other places which are much smaller population than any existing state were addressed already in this thread. Scroll up. Also being a triggered social injustice warrior doesn’t give you a good excuse to distort other people’s arguments. Did you even go back to check whether Richard posted that argument in 2016 or other such arguments in the past? Most likely you are jumping to conclusions. In fairness I didn’t look through all the thousands of pasts archives here either so let’s give you the benefits of doubt on that one for the moment.
I addressed your not so solid arguments and as for the letter I hadn’t seen your comment with the link until after I posted the one after it. But now that I have i can address the writer’s arguments as well.
I don’t see the physical territory size as a problem. Population seems like the more operational measure here. He claims D.C. Would not change state legislature votes in Maryland but provides no evidence. How about state spending, executive races ..after all Maryland still elects republicans as governor, etc. There are many issues he glosses over. The only difference would be 2 additional senators but at least at the moment they would most likely be in much agreement on federal issues in both dc and Maryland do their voice would only be amplified. When it comes to local representatives, spending, positions, and other balance of power within Maryland that’s a different story though as D.C. Would alter that far more.
It’s not surprising you’d find any position in an op ed or LTE if you go back a few years. But that’s not like a movement in the least.
Actually yes. I do know history. Unlike Phil however I am not stuck in it and also know how to live in the present and move forward, not just try to go back to antebellum ways.
Republicans are not smart to prioritize short term control of 2 senate seats to ling term broadening their appeal to larger numbers of nonwhite voters
See
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-republican-choice/
Long term.
DC probably would and likely does elect similar people as those in Baltimore, namely Democrats. If anything, it would make Maryland more of a blue state.
In your mind, is land mass not as important as population? Should New York City be its own state? Los Angeles? Phoenix? They would be more populous than several states too.
Local DC politicians are some of the most corrupt in the country. That may make a hypothetical DC state the most corrupt in the nation.
You don’t respect history at all. Some of it of course should not still be in effect today (slavery for one), but the DC either being a district or given back to Maryland should be respected.
What a surprise, you use a leftist opinion piece. That’s why you want DC as a state, admit it. My option of returning it to Maryland makes more sense and is more fair.
“DC probably would and likely does elect similar people as those in Baltimore, namely Democrats. If anything, it would make Maryland more of a blue state.”
Well yeah that’s why it would not dilute, but only amplify their voice in the senate. But when it comes to state government they have different concerns, issues and priorities. I went into some depth on that and you come back with uh “they’re all democrats”. Well no, for starters the governor of Maryland is a Republican, which would be much less likely if DC voters voted in Maryland. But even if they were all Democrats it doesn’t mean they have no differences. Those differences are much more amplified within a state legislature and state executive and judicial departments. There are many more local concerns than just national political divisions.
Please re-read the thread as you keep raising points that have already been addressed.
“In your mind, is land mass not as important as population?”
Correct,
“Should New York City be its own state? Los Angeles? Phoenix? They would be more populous than several states too.”
If they were not already part of a state that would be fine. But they are, and there is no movement of anything like the size and strength of the DC statehood movement either inside those cities or in the states they are now in to have them separate.
“Local DC politicians are some of the most corrupt in the country. That may make a hypothetical DC state the most corrupt in the nation.”
I don’t know what measures you are using, nor have you explained what the federal interference does to prevent corruption.
“You don’t respect history at all.”
On the contrary. I study it frequently for both the good and the bad it has to teach us.
“Some of it of course should not still be in effect today (slavery for one), but the DC either being a district or given back to Maryland should be respected.”
That’s an assertion, not an argument. I’m glad you don’t want slavery, but that’s not a very controversial position anymore. How about Jim Crow, “separate but equal”, racially based voter disenfranchisement and vote suppression, and state mandated segregation? That’s much more recent history. There is even more recent history than that, and DC’s second class status is a continuing part of that legacy and a rather obvious one.
“What a surprise, you use a leftist opinion piece.”
Sounded centrist to me. What did they get wrong in your opinion?
” That’s why you want DC as a state, admit it. ”
I want DC residents to have equal rights and not force people in Maryland and DC most of whom do not want to merge to do so against their will. You are projecting your own rightist bias on to my imagined leftist one. My opinions are a mix of what most people today consider leftist and rightist. If you ask most people who consider themselves on the left today they would not consider my overall positions to be on the left as while there are many issues where we tend to agree there are also many where we tend to disagree. I do not find any existing political party to fully reflect my views and I don’t always favir either Democrats or Republicans. Whenever possible I try to find other options. None of the smaller parties are perfectly aligned with me either but I am glad they exist to give people more choices.
“My option of returning it to Maryland makes more sense and is more fair.”
Yet another assertion which your arguments have failed to support with logic or reason. Since you know that the people of DC and Maryland mostly and by far overwhelmingly oppose reunification your call for a shotgun wedding sounds like cover for what you really want in all likelihood which is continued colonial status for DC. And that’s most likely because you are a rightist who favors Republicans over Democrats. Any other explanation, while not mutually exclusive, is even less charitable towards your self.
Are people of the Virgin Islands second class citizens? You said they shouldn’t be a state. They can’t even vote for president, unlike those in DC. That’s one of the major flaws in your argument. There is a Virgin Islands statehood movement, just like in Puerto Rico and Guam. There’s probably one in the Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa.
How is there racially disenfranchisement in voting today? There is no more poll tax. It’s very easy to vote, especially in states with mail in ballots. Some states have polls open for well over twelve hours on Election Day, plus absentee ballots.
Didn’t the people living in DC (excluding minor children) choose to live there? They should have known what their status is. Even so, the compromise is giving it back to Maryland. They gain a rep (more or less, based on population), or at minimum share the nearby rep. There’s your representation. Does a community as small as DC is sizewise really need two Senators?
Sorry, you are just repeating things I already addressed. VI has been addressed multiple times. Repeating yourself doesn’t help your floundering and outdated cause.
“How is there racially disenfranchisement in voting today?”
I gave you one link of thousands which goes into plenty of depth on that. You said one word “leftist” as if that is supposed to be some kind of counter argument. Of course DC and PR having less than equal rights is another of the many examples. Racial disparities in the criminal so called justice system combined with disenfranchisement for past convictions is another, and the Republicans openly admit they want to disenfranchise voters now. Read the link in full instead of one word “leftist” and asking silly questions that it among many others answers.
“Didn’t the people living in DC (excluding minor children) choose to live there? ”
Many do not have a choice realistically, or need to be near jobs and relatives or to stay with their family among many other reasons. Why should they have to move to get equal voting rights?
“Even so, the compromise is giving it back to Maryland. ”
Much like your virgin islands talking point which you keep repeating that one has been addressed repeatedly now. Repeating the same bad arguments over and over doesn’t make them any better.
“Does a community as small as DC is sizewise really need two Senators?”
That’s not apportioned on land area in any way. And it has more people than at least 2 or 3 existing states. You can’t say that about VI. If the people of Wyoming and Vermont each get 2 senators there is no reason why DC shouldn’t.
When all you can do is repeat yourself it’s a good sign that you know you have lost the argument.
You never fully answered the Virgin Islands questions. You said they shouldn’t become a state because the population is too small. You never addressed the fact that by your arguments, they would be second class citizens. I thought you wanted all citizens to vote? American Samoans aren’t even citizens (yet).
You have the choice to move out of DC. If memory serves, the transit system serves parts of Maryland and Virginia. You could also drive to work, though DC traffic is terrible.
You are the one repeating yourself. I am reasking the questions you refuse to answer, because you know it would hurt your argument.
No, they were answered. A state should always have at least the population of a congressional district. For offshore islands with tiny population independence would be more logical. I’d make an exception for Puerto Rico because it has enough people there to be a state and because that’s what most people there seem to prefer, although if I lived there I would prefer independence myself.
Again, not everyone has a realistic opportunity to move. There are many reasons people may not ride metro ranging from all kinds of health issues to anxiety to you name it. They may just have too busy of a schedule to spend ten or twelve hours a week commuting. They may have sick or dying family members$s they need to be in immediate range of. They may have a spouse or partner who is not willing to move. They may have a business that requires them to be on call and not an hour away. They may have property they can’t or won’t sell for any number of reasons. Moving may just be too much of a logistical hassle. Their kids may not be willing to switch schools or may have severe problems adapting to a different setting. The reasons are myriad but the bottom line is that having to move to have equal voting rights is NOT having equal voting rights.
I’m not your dancing bear. These points should be obvious to anyone but the most oblivious or deliberately obtuse person. They should not have to be spelled out. Most of the people of dc want to be their own state, Not part of Maryland. Most of the people of Maryland have no interest in having dc be a part of their state. The 1700s reasons for having a federal district that is not part of any state no longer have much relevance to today’s reality and would in any case no longer work if dc was in Maryland.
So the reality is I think you realize that Maryland and dc will not agree to unification so you hold that out there as a false choice to deflect from keeping a city of the better part of a million people on the U.S. Mainland in quasicolonial status. The real reasons are either narrow minded partisan opposition to two additional democrats in the Senate, which as I explained amount to republicans cutting off their nose to spite their face or eating their seed corn, something of a demographic reason even less defensible to most people, or a mix of both.
Your arguments about virgin islands and Maryland are reflections from this unpleasant reality for the ugliness of the argument you are trying to make. Your unsupported claim about dc being uniquely more corrupt than any state hints at that less pleasant explanation without coming right out and saying it.
But duck and dodge as much as you want, it’s obvious what your real issue is. D.C. Is majority black and black people are overwhelmingly majority democratic voters right now. It would be wise for republicans and those who find them to be better than democrats to broaden their appeal so that the latter is no longer the case. Black people were at one time overwhelmingly republican voters when they were allowed to vote, and for decades after that continued to have a large minority of black republicans.
If republicans and those who support them over democrats keep playing games through vote suppression and targeted disenfranchisement, racial gerrymandering, severely hampering immigration and other strategies aimed at giving white voters more voting power than nonwhite voters rather than getting better at appealing to a greater percentage of nonwhite voters they will have only themselves to blame when long term demographic trends make them a permanent minority party. Its ok, you can thank me later.
D.C. doesn’t have an airport, it doesn’t have a prison, it doesn’t have non-negligible agricultural, mineral, or manufacturing. It is dependent on the federal government economically. It is not a legitimate member of the compact that is the United States.
Citizens who reside in the district should have representation.
Citizens who resided in the district between 1790 and 1801 continued to have federal representation. There is no constitutional reason that representation can not be restored. Residents of federal enclaves such as military bases are permitted to vote in federal elections.
Alternatively, the territory of the district should be retroceded. The cession was made for a specific purpose, creation of a federal capital district. If a more centrally located captital be established (or have been established), there is no reason that the US would have maintained control of the old location. Congress does not have authority to cede the territory to other states, new or existing. If the current federal capital district is no longer needed, then it should be returned to Maryland.
I’m sure they could manage to build a prison if they became a state. There are existing states with no major airport and whose population mostly flies in and out of an airport in a neighbor state when they fly. Agriculture, mineral and manufacturing aren’t requirements to be a state or for that matter a country. See some of Richard’s examples of small nations above. Some of them don’t have any of the things you cite either. D.C. Has plenty of small local and franchise national business and many others in the suburbs. If the federal government moved it’s district to Colorado or wherever it would certainly be a shock to the economy but it wouldn’t cease to exist, it would adapt, survive and recover with different employment being created over time.
Like Phil you bring up Maryland without addressing the point that the vast majority of both Maryland and D.C. Voters do not want D.C. To be part of Maryland. You can’t force it on them, so colonialism continues by default instead.
There are many places D.C. Could put a new prison but personally I’m thinking it would be best to take the site of the old post office, currently the trump hotel, and eminent domain it for conversion to a prison . As a decades long and ardent advocate and practitioner of eminent domain I’m sure Mr trump would approve. If not, perhaps a new trump tower D.C. Could go up and become the new dc prison. Naturally, after he moves out of the white house Mr trump should have the penthouse. If an airport is the greatest impediment to statehood perhaps Virginia could be persuaded to cede or sell its territorial claim over Reagan national.
If the federal government moved out of dc I think many entrepreneurs could find uses for former federal buildings to bring new employment to the new state.
I should clarify I think a state should at least be in the ballpark population for a us house district. If slightly smaller say 500k people rather than 700k it’s not a huge deal but 20k is obviously much different. It’s not that I’m necessarily forever against statehood for small island territories but it’s a lot less of a priority as it’s a lot fewer people, not even in the ballpark of a house district, and much more realistic for them to consider independent nationhood as opposed to U.S. Statehood than it would be for D.C.
It’s just a way to give black people more power. Fuck that. I will not bow to the cult of black lives matter or burn loot murder.
Yeah, because black people have way too much power and white people don’t have enough. Black lives don’t matter and let’s ignore the facts that the 1% crony corporatists and their police state shills burn loot and murder far more than a few agitators, undercover cops and white supremacist infiltrators at 99% plus peaceful protests. Right?
Burn loot murder? Who has murdered more between protesters, brutal racist out of control cops and US military and drone strikes? Who has burned more, protesters or bombing raids? Or how about the police firebombing a black community in Philadelphia in 1985, white supremacists firebombing Black Wall Street in Tulsa in 1921, and many other such incidents too numerous to count? Who has looted more, a few protesters who got out of hand among many more who didn’t, completely unrelated people from all kinds of neighborhoods who took advantage of the situation to loot with no motive except self interest, or multimillionaires and billionaires who have used government and corporate power combined to loot trillions from everyone else?
Oh yeah let’s not forget cops who have looted how much money in bribes and shakedowns, slavemasters and their descendents who looted labor and the wealth it produced from millions of Black people, the government which loots more with eminent domain abuse and civil asset forfeiture than all criminals combined, the corporate partners who profit off prison slave labor today, the government which uses prison slave labor for themselves, or maybe the white business owners and their heirs who profited and looted so much generational wealth from black labor through Jim Crow and discrimination which continues in more subtle ways to this day that the average white family has ten times the wealth of the average black family to this day. Talk about looters.
How many people has the government murdered with the wars overseas, war on drugs and unsafe working conditions due to government protecting business owners from full liability?
There are entire large areas of US cities that are or were mostly burned out buildings for decades. Do you think that was all just a few freelance criminal looters or maybe had something to do with bad government policies? Was that driven by black power? Burn loot murder, wake up to who does it for real.
Jim, Monaco is a member of the United Nations, but it doesn’t have any airport, nor farms. Do you feel Monaco should never have been admitted to the UN? Do you think Monaco is a “legitimate” nation?
And to the extent that you do drive some black people to burn loot murder. What do you think happens when you take away people’s political and economic power, brutalize them, enslave them, dehumanize and burn loot murder them for generations, treat them as criminal suspects or cannon fodder, lock them in cages and kill them like nonhuman animals for generation after generation for 400 years?
But by all means keep it up and continue to diminish and limit their voting rights after everything that has been done because that will sure solve the problem and keep people from burning, looting and murdering. Keep up the good work and see where it gets us.
How much farms, airports, manufacturing, prisons, or minerals does Vatican City have?
BTW urban farming is on the rise. Apartments and rowhouses and community gardens can grow plenty of cannabis, tomatoes, vegetables of all sorts, hydroponics, microgreens, and much more. Granted DC probably won’t have a lot of ranching any time soon but then neither will Rhode Island.
Uniform definition of Elector-Voter in ALL of USA — including Devil City and occupied areas —
USA Citizen, 18 plus years olde — NOOOO mental/criminal machinations.
PR and APPV
TOTSOP
Does a uniform definition of elector include the same right to elect senators and have local control over local affairs that citizens of all 50 states currently enjoy?
https://insomniaclibertarian.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/the-libertarian-case-for-dc-statehood-2/
Interesting article. Only skimmed it so far, will need to read more when I have more time.
So about not having any other cities in WDC. Not sure why that matters, but if it does would it solve that particular objection if neighborhoods with strong separate identities such as Anacostia and Georgetown seceded to form their own municipalities? There was a time when not all of DC was in the city of Washington. Nor would it be the first time that neighborhoods seceded from existing cities to form their own city.
You STILL haven’t answered the Virgin Islands question. Why are they not considered second class citizens in your mind, but DC residents are?
You sounds like a leftist troll to me, or possibly a paid advocate for a DC state.
None of those, but if you are unable to comprehend any of the many replies to that deflection of a question I already gave you, I can no longer help you. I have explained it six different ways. If you are unable to understand any of them there is nothing I can do for you.
For anyone else, scroll up and read the many times I did in fact answer exactly that as well as explained why the question is a deflection from the real question at hand.
I mean, I could return the compliment and say Phil sounds like a rightist troll or possibly a paid advocate of the Republicans. I don’t know for a fact that Phil isn’t and it’s pretty obvious he is a rightist and either a Republican or at least thinks they are overall better than Democrats. The thing is I don’t care if he is or what he thinks I am because either someone makes sense or they don’t and nothing else here matters.
Now as for me .., I am neither a leftist or a rightist, as I have many issues in common with both. You may say I am a centrist but that’s not quite correct either because many of my views would be considered either far right or far left depending on the issue by most people. As far as being paid I am happily retired for the last 5 years and not looking for any more paid work now or in the future. I’m not a fan of the mindless and oversimplified left, center and right labels. They are substitutes for and short cuts away from thinking about issues, candidates and individuals and arguments in more depth. None of them describe me well and I’m sure I am far from being the only one this is true of.
I do not consider either the Democrats or Republicans to be better or worse than the other. They are both terrible in different ways and I can’t tell which one is worse since they are also both very dishonest. To the extent I care about parties, which is not much, I prefer having more rather than fewer on the ballot. I have looked at every party I can find and disagree with every single one of them strongly on at least some issues. Even if I found one I agreed with on everything I still don’t trust parties or their leaders in general. I would ideally prefer candidates have no party labels printed at all and that voters do their own research on each candidate individually rather than act like a herd and follow a label. Maybe that’s asking too much, idk.
DC statehood is not nearly as big of an issue for me as you might assume by reading this thread. I do tend to run with a discussion once I join one. It is an issue I have thought through a number of times, but not one I discuss or think about frequently. Of course Phil or anyone else is free to not believe me if they so choose. I don’t care that much if you don’t. I think my points stand on their own regardless of what you imagine my motives are. Anyone who cares to read is free to find out for themselves and agree or disagree as they see fit.
If Phil or anyone else can read this whole thread and honestly say I have not addressed his VI deflection, or explained why it is a deflection…well either you are not actually honest or I don’t know what your reading comprehension issues are and obviously I can’t penetrate whatever fog clouds your mind. I tried so now it’s time to move on to something or someone else where comprehension at least has a possible shot. Beating my head against brick walls is just not a hobby for me. Sorry Phil, you will have to refer to previous answers if you want an answer. It’s in there. Repeatedly, at that.
You responses to yourself twice just now. If that isn’t a sign of a huge ego, I don’t know what is.
Keep dodging the Virgin Islands question, because you still haven’t answered it. Maybe if I phrase it another way: why do you consider the residents of DC second class citizens, but not those of Guam?
I don’t believe that and I did answer it. Scroll up, or don’t. You are the one dodging the fact it’s in there. More than once. I also explained why it’s a deflection. It still is, and all your demonstrating, aside from inability or unwillingness to read and comprehend, is why you are so desperate to deflect and hope it will work on people who don’t take the time to scroll up and read for themselves. And it might work for you with some people, since people generally have increasingly short attention spans. But I won’t keep providing the answers which I already provided and you either didn’t bother to read, couldn’t process or deny when they are right there if you scroll up. I don’t care how many times you lie and claim I did not answer your points when I did. As for answering myself I have not answered myself. I have added information as I thought of it and corrected or amended myself a few times.
But at this point nothing is to be gained from further conversation with you. Not only are you obviously trying to deflect for reasons I also already explained above but you also are claiming I am dishonest while being dishonest yourself and insisting I did not answer things I clearly did right in this thread. Thus you are doing nothing but wasting my time and trying to drag me in the muck with you, and bury my substantive points above with your nonsubstantive and counterfactual denials that I made them. You are doing this because you have no valid responses or points of your own. I won’t play your games. Does anyone else have any actual issues I have not already addressed? Please scroll up and read the thread first.
To anyone reading who is actually capable of reading and processing information, and takes the time to do so, you’ll see that Phil is desperately trying to cling to a bald faced lie he keeps repeating that I did not already answer his deceitful and sad attempt at deflection. You can see my responses for yourself and come to see why he resorts to such tactics: because he has no actual valid arguments or replies to the points I did make. So all he’s left with is hoping you won’t take the time to scroll up and read to see that he is just plain, objectively obviously lying at this point.
Repeating lies and claiming the person you are talking to hasn’t said what they did say in the very same conversation? That’s pathetic, shameful and all he has left of a tired and false argument I have already demonstrated faults with from every single angle brought up thus far including the one he keeps lying that I did not address when I did, right here above.
There has been an active DC Statehood Party for about fifty years now . . . though shortly before the turn of the century, it changed its name to the DC Statehood GREEN Party.
The Libertarians in DC also endorse statehood as do the other parties.
@RW,
Monaco, Vatican City, Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino are not members of the European Union even though being within the EU footprint. They are felt to be too small to take on the responsibilities of membership.
They do have various government relationships. Monaco has a customs union with France. During the pandemic, there was a private jet that flew to the Nice airport with an intent to drive directly to Monaco. The French turned the plane around.
Monaco does not qualify for US statehood because it doesn’t have a republican form of government. The minister of state is proposed by the French government. Until 2002 this had to be a French citizen. Now it can be a Monegasque citizen, though the current minister of state is French. Only 21% of Monaco residents are Monegasque. In that sense it is similar to DC with many residents maintaining allegience to their State or foreign country.
I say kick out Monaco, and admit Taiwan (ROC)
Mike, you are the one lying. You never completely answered the question, and will not because you know it hurts your argument. The fact you keep saying you did when in fact you did not shows how desperate you are for attention. You aren’t much different than Robert Milnes.
I think everyone is rather missing the point here. If the complaint is “Taxation Without Representation” then end ALL taxes in DC. The economic miracle which would ensue would eradicate most of the District’s problems. Give control back to the House of Representatives with the Speaker being the de facto mayor once again. Problem solved.
The European Union does accept Luxembourg as a full-fledged member, even though its population of 613,894 is less than that of D.C. As to “taxation without representation”, that is not the issue. The voters of DC have a right to full representation on all issues, not just taxation. For example, who should be on the US Supreme Court, whether treaties should be approved. etc.
DC as a state is a terrible idea, at least under the present system under which we live. Adding DC as a state would mean two more big government US Senators, and one more big government US House member. Government is the number one “industry” in DC. Since DC is heavily Democrat, they’d be sure to elect two more gun grabbing US Senators, and a gun grabbing US House member.
The only concession I’d be willing to make is to give some of DC back to Maryland. This would likely give Maryland another US House member who is a gun grabbing leftist Democrat, but at least it would not add two more US Senators.
I actually favor putting more restrictions on voting. Government employees and contractors should not be able to vote, nor should welfare recipients. The aforementioned groups should also be barred from donating to political campaigns. I also favor making it more difficult for foreign nationals to become American citizens.
I’d also favor that people should have to pass a test on the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution before they can vote.
Democracy and freedom are not necessarily the same thing. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner. Democracy is the God that failed.
Richard continues to make by far the best points here.
If you preface your support for DC becoming a state on whether it would help “your side” or not, you have no principles and your opinion will be ignored
Agreed. And contrary to some false accusations from some above who actually do have a side between democrats and republicans I have none. My preference would be if republicans were to broaden their base. Otherwise we will end up with democrats being a quasi permanent ruling party for multiple decades, like the pri was in Mexico until recently or the ldpr in Japan for a long time. By opposing dc statehood on narrow short term partisan and demographic exclusionary concerns, republicans and their allies are helping to pave the way for a long term nationally dominant democratic party of power. I don’t think they will like the results.
@CO,
How about, “No representation without taxation”. Make taxation voluntary, with one vote per $ paid. All tax returns would be public since they would consist of the receipt for tax payment.
Poll taxes are already illegal and it’s not like we don’t already have enough of a plutocracy.
Richard, giving DC back to Maryland would net the same result.
It’s not just nonwhite voters who are turned off by the narrowing ethnonationalist direction the gop is taking. More well off and higher educated white voters are too. And both groups are growing, as well as increasingly solidly against republicans. Here’s a case study :
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-arizona-became-a-swing-state/
Of course that’s just one example but it’s happening all over the country. Increasingly appealing to fewer and fewer people except older, primarily male, rural and small town, lower income and lower education whites will cause republicans to become a minor party over time. Instead of trying to appeal to a larger cross section of the population they are doubling and tripling down on…
Restricting mail voting
Racial gerrymandering
Purging voter rolls
Felony disenfranchisement
Immigration restrictions
Tighter voter id requirements along with making it harder to get a state Id
Having fewer polling places
Making it harder to register voters
Limiting early voting
Harassment at voting locations to scare people away from voting
Spreading deceptive messages to mislead people that internet polls count as official votes
And many other things along the same lines. They are banking on this allowing them to win the presidency even if they lose the popular vote and narrowly holding the senate as well as winning control of enough legislatures thanks to prior gerrymandering to keep gerrymandering in their favor after this year’s census
And keeping dc and pr from being states is part of this short term agenda. But it’s harmful to their own interests in the long run, and that’s harmful to the country’s long term interests because we desperately need to keep at least one strong opposition party . Multipartisan would be better and completely nonpartisan would be best of all, but what they are steering us toward is a democratic party quasi dictatorship similar to Mexico under many decades of pri effectively one party rule before their stranglehold finally broke recently.
The only way likely to head this off is a more moderate and inclusive republican party which ditches the right wing social and culture war wedge issues and it’s evolving right authoritarian nationalism on trade, immigration, policing issues and other wedge and dogwhistle appeals. Instead they should focus on keeping the far left from moving the country in a socialist direction economically and maintain a strong national defense with strong democratic international treaties and alliances aimed at preventing wars and conflicts rather than provoking them.
By opposing dc statehood, republicans and their allies are signaling they want to keep moving in the opposite direction. That will be very bad for them over the next couple of decades and as a result for the country as a whole.
The Republicans are moderate as it is. They’re much more left than the party of Goldwater.It’s obvious you are just a Democrat shill. They don’t gerrymander racially, if anyone does the Democrats are obsessed with race. They don’t harass at voting locations, that’s the government unions, which are almost all Democrat or at minimum non partisan. The restricting of mail in is because of fraud, like the Democrats tried in Minnesota during the Franken race, remember that? They require citizenship or a green card for a state ID, instead of illegals. Are you saying illegals are a good thing? The Democrats restrict immigration too, remember how many Obama had deported? The states control voting rolls, not the feds. I personally know a case where a building owner who left town over a decade ago was voting absentee even though his official residency was in another state. His party? Democrat. The elected officials who knew this and tried to cover it up for years? Democrats.
Brandon, my side and my principles are to preserve liberty. Granting statehood to DC, which the founders of the country opposed, does not preserve or expand liberty, at least not under the current system under which we live.
Goldwater would have found today’s Republicans to be unrecognizable on social/cultural issues, immigration, trade, and international alliances. I’d actually love to see Republicans run candidates like Goldwater again, relative to what they have now. I don’t like Democrats better than Republicans, but the troll keeps insisting I do. Sounds like projection. The gerrymandering is well documented and intentional. It’s why many state legislatures where most of the votes for legislature are cast for Democrats are controlled by Republicans. The Republicans have made no bones of this strategy. I’ve already linked an article above the Republicans long history of admitted and intentional racial harassment at polling places and other strategies they have been using to relatively clamp down on racial minority and youth voting. It’s not my fault the troll hasn’t bothered to actually read it, but others are still welcome to do so it they scroll up and look for the first link posted in this thread from 538.com
There is absolutely no evidence that mail voting is any more fraud plagued than in person voting. Several states do most of their voting by mail and at least one or two have been for a long time. There is zero evidence that it led to any increase in fraud. The Republicans have openly admitted why they really want to reduce mail voting (see that same first 538 link again) but clearly spreading lies about voting fraud makes it a better issue for them with more people than being to frequently and publicly forthright about the real reason.
Of course, I’m not saying “illegals” are a good thing. They should all be legalized. Nation of origin and other numerical immigration quotas should be done away with. But this has nothing to do with the disingenuous republican claims about “illegals” voting, higher rates of fraud with mail voting, and all other such lying claims meant to conceal what they are really trying to go – which, again, they have at least at times admitted recently.
Yes, Democrats have restricted immigration at times. In fact many times they were more aggressive about it than Republicans for much of their history. As recently as Reagan’s time the Republican Party was relatively more sane than Democrats on immigration. But that has changed. The Democrats have gotten better on this issue, and the Republicans have become remarkably and markedly worse. All to their and our detriment in the long run.
The Republicans should move back to more Goldwateresque positions: strongly pro-defense, pro-international defense alliance rather than Trump’s idiotic go it alone nationalism, pro-international democracy, social and culturally liberal to moderate, pro free enterprise, low tax, low regulation, low spending, against piling up deficits and debt, pro fiscal responsibility, pro free trade. That’s an agenda that could bring back higher income and higher education voters of all races who are in the midst of abandoning a Republican Party they no longer recognize as well as upwardly mobile and middle class nonwhite voters who are being driven away by the new Republican soft-ethnostate, nationalist, authoritarian, faux-populist, protectionist, pro-police thuggery, know nothing xenophobic agenda.
Granting statehood expands the liberty of hundreds of thousands of DC residents and signals a move away from white supremacy, which would expand the liberty of people throughout the country. The founders’ concerns don’t translate well to the present day for reasons already explained above.
How about posting a neutral article instead of one obviously by a leftist group? You are really bad at hiding you alliance to the Democrats.
White supremacy? Give me a break. Democrats always bring race into every single issue, even when it isn’t there. DC was intended to not be a state. People chose to live there- that’s their fault. Still, since land was taken from Maryland to form the current DC, it should be given back if the district no longer exists.
I am convinced you are an egotistical troll.
If someone other than the troll has any questions or concerns, let me know. Neither I, nor the 538 article linked above (the first such in this thread), is leftist or Democrat. The rest has been addressed as well and does not need to be repeated. It’s unfortunately that today’s Republicans think people should either have to move, or shouldn’t be allowed to move, to have full equal rights. The Republican party used to be better than that. Likewise the Democrats used to be better than its current big government issue on economic issues, but that was much longer ago. The Republican devolution to what they are becoming is more recent.
You are talking to yourself again, but at least you admit you are a troll. You still haven’t answered the Virgin Islands question. Do you also believe they shouldn’t have to move to have full equal rights?
Phil admits he’s a troll, talks to himself and lies about the virgin islands again all in one post. Nice!
Mike is losing it, or else he believes his own lies. He never answered the Virgin Islands question
Phil comes back to revive a now dead thread the following day to keep repeating his lies, which he can’t possibly believe. Pathetic given that the evidence remains directly above. He can go ahead and repeat those same lies again, nothing will change and I am done reminding him he’s lying. He already knows, anyone who cares already knows, and it’s highly likely at this point no one cares. It’s a dead horse and Phil can beat it without my help. He can go ahead and lie again. In the likely event that no one besides Phil has anything more to add here, I am done and the troll Phil can lie again if he wants with no further replies from me. If anyone cares to see what I actually said they can scroll up and read from the start down. I’m sure Phil won’t pass up the opportunity to repeat the same irrelevant lies again like a broken record. It’s all yours, Phil.
I am the troll, yet you keep posting the same lies?
Mike is a hypocrite! He believe “second class citizens“ only apply to DC and probably Puerto Rico, but not Guam, USVI, and CNMI. He didn’t even acknowledge American Samoa’s unique situation.
How long before he says yet again I am a liar and beating a dead horse?
DC should be expelled from the United States and allowed to become a separate, independent nation. And yes, before anyone asks, build a wall. I’m not a fan of the southern border wall but this one I say yes.