Libertarian Party Will Hold an In-Person “Second Sitting” of the National Convention for Party Business

The Libertarian Party will hold an in-person “second sitting” of the national convention in Orlando, Florida, July 8-12. Although the party already chose its national ticket last month via an electronic convention, it still must elect party officers and work on the platform and bylaws.


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Libertarian Party Will Hold an In-Person “Second Sitting” of the National Convention for Party Business — 114 Comments

  1. LNC Bringing One-party System in 2020
    By James Ogle for US President or Vice President and LNC Vice Chair
    6/5/2020

    “United Coalition USA is bringing the correct math for pure proportional but the LNC party bosses did everything to assure a one-party system in 1996, 2012 and 2020, through ballot censorship and incorrect vote counting methods.”

    1996

    Harry Browne/Colin Powell [Libertarian/Independent] = Three-party System

    Harry Browne/Jo Jorgensen [Libertarian/Libertarian] = One-party System

    2012

    Roseanne Barr/James Ogle [Roseannearchist/Libertarian] = Three-party System

    Gary Johnson/Judge Jim Gray [Libertarian/Libertarian] = One-party System

    2020

    Sorinne Ardeleanu (R deli anu)/James Ogle [Independent/One] = Three-party System

    Jo Jorgensen/Spike Cohen [Libertarian/Libertarian] = One-party System
    * * *

    Independent One 2020
    http://Www.pprelectoralcollege.com
    * * *

    By CEO Buck Rogers [Conservative]
    5/31/2020
    Victory

    “Inspiration gives you a start, endurance gives you a victory.”
    * * *

  2. Jeff Bezos named Amazon after me the day after we spent several minutes in an alley behind a bar. Little known fact. Another not universally known fact is that his birth name was Jeff Jorgensen. Probably no relation, but he did not become a Bezos until being adopted at age 4. Did you know Jeff Bezos (nee Jorgensen) has become 50 billion dollars richer since Corona hit the US, or that billionaires have increased their wealth by the better part of a trillion in the last couple of months?

  3. ANY Trump / DNC / Putin / Xi killers planting CV-19 bio-WAR stuff in Orlando ???

    Can summer heat kill the CV-19 ??? — regardless of 90-100 pct humidity in FL ???

  4. Robert, removing one person won’t undo the damage in 2020, we need a revolution to change the whole L.P., it’s not about one person.

    We’d need to reform every paper ballot, every vote count and every bylaw item, to bring the L.P. up to date. If only some members cared about the mechanics of voting systems, we could have made voting power of women in the L.P. a reality a long time ago. With about 18% of the Electors combined with the unfair tactics against womem, our team couldn’t get the word out in time. Us men didn’t do a good enough job.

    I’m highlighting how the L.P. snuffed out the campaigns of nine female L.P. Prez candidates while allowing only one female candidate supported by the one-party party boss system, only Jorgensen could be in debate at 2020 California State L.P. convention under their approval voting system.

    The Libertarian Party bosses made sure that the Delegates wouldn’t hear about our team using limited voting for Electoral College for past 25 years.

    The LP did that and it preserved their one-party voting system where Electors get two tokens for two names, Prez and VP, that’s the one-party system.

    The United Coalition USA is bringing the 539-party system to the 538-member Electoral College but the L.P. bosses don’t want anyone to know.

    That’s where Electors only get one token/vote for two seats, limited voting, and our math is supported by marked paper ballots as proof.

    Independent One 2020
    http://Www.pprelectoralcollege.com

  5. LP in Orlando.
    Remove Spike from ticket.
    Replace with Darcy Richardson OR some other progressive.
    Form a fusion ticket.
    Build a PLAS campaign.
    They (voters, donors) will come.

  6. Bylaws and Platform —

    PR and AppV – pending Condorcet

    TOTSOP.
    —-

    End the ROT in the LP and in ALL govts in the USA.

  7. Spike is a progressive anarchocommunist. He is on a plas ticket with Jorgensen. They are a consecutively ranked female and male, with the female on top. In Orlando she will get on top and have a second sitting with the male progressive remaining on the bottom.

  8. All the voters and donors will come repeatedly as the female libertarian continues her second sitting on top with the consecutively ranked male progressive on bottom. Win win win!

  9. Do you really want a vice president nominee whose first name comes from his name for his circumsized penis?

  10. Ban all trolls.
    Spike is NOT a leftist/progressive.
    Jo/Spike is NOT a fusion ticket.
    They are NOT pursuing a PLAS campaign.
    US Parliament is NOT PLAS.
    Nominate a fusion ticket.
    Build a PLAS campaign.
    They will come.

  11. The Libertarian Party vice-presidential nominee will be on November ballots as Jeremy “Spike” Cohen.

  12. Of course it’s in another southern city. What does Sarwark and his puppets have against the north?

  13. Ban Ogle,
    That is a good question.
    I thought that after I made the allegation that the LP convention in Orlando in 2016 was targeted for a false flag terrorist attack supposedly against the LGBTQ caucus, then was postponed and retargeted to The Pulse Club, I thought that was the end of meetings in the South, or at least Orlando.
    But no.
    There they go.

  14. He is too a progressive anarcho communist just like vermin supreme.

  15. They don’t have anything against the north. They picked dc for 2024. Reno is not really north or south but they picked it for 2022.

  16. While Orlando is geographically southern, it’s not very culturally southern. In Florida, it’s backwards – the further south you go, the less stereotypically southern it is culturally. Likewise, Austin is not very culturally southern either, had that plan gone thru.

  17. The people that Sarwark removed from the convention committee and are now trying to remove him from the national committee are not exactly “Sarwark puppets”.

  18. How many daily MAJOR news stories about LP-JJ-JC as compared to Trump/Biden ???

    Perhaps ONE more story in Oct listing the Prez/VP candidates in States having a majority of the ECV ???

    About 20 troll posts so far in this thread – esp by the usual suspect ever changing fake name troll-in-chief — TIC head — with its ever so-cute pre-skooool MORON troll posts ???

    BAN TIC heads.

  19. Cyberpig Egyptian Andy is the troll in chief, along with his troll council of cyberpig Demo Rep, cyberpig Ogle and cyberpig Milnes.

  20. Andy hasn’t even commented on this thread. The person obsessed with him is the cyberpig xaulie banali. The cyberpig betrayed his former friend Andy. He caused Andy to get arrested for terroristic threats by making threats under his name. He bans everyone who disagrees with him on IPR including Amdy and Milnes. He banned Milnes right when PLAS was getting traction. Now he trolls this site by attacking commenters like Demo Rep.

  21. Well, someone here is sure obsessed with someone. Seems like cyberpig TIC Egyptian Andy and his cyberpig buddy Milnes and Ogle are obsessed with this paulie or xaulie. The rest of your comment sounds like BS. I’m sure you really believe PLAS was getting traction, too.

  22. Oops, sorry, Milnes, not Ogle, shares cyberpig Egyptian Andy’s obsession with cyberpig xaulie. Milnes and Ogle are just wrapped in their own worlds, like Demo Rep. They probably actually believe their own spin. This egyptian cyberpig, on the other hand, almost certainly knows better and is pretty obviously intentionally trolling for the lulz. He may have made those terroristic threats too. Seems highly likely. It’s as likely he believes anything else he says as that he believes PLAS was or is getting traction.

  23. I thought PLAS was getting traction late last year with the GP Steering committee.
    There was supposed to be a special meeting in my Hometown, Camden, NJ.
    But I heard nothing further.;
    The meeting was announced in Greenline, so I assumed it was official GP business.
    What happened? IDK.

  24. PLAS is finally getting traction now with the nomination of PLAS ticket Jorgensen-Cohen. They will win. Let no one tell you different.

  25. No, I am No One. Stop impersonating me! I am the only No One I ever met. My parents thought it was a good prank to play on me to name me that given my dad’s last name. Kind of like the boy named Sue. I tried to sue, but the case was dismissed, and now I don’t have the money to change my name. You are not No One. You are Robert Milnes. So please stop trying to tell people you are me, because you’re not.

  26. Richard,
    Are you saying in previous comment that there is no way the LP could remove Spike from the ticket?
    That doesn’t sound right.

  27. Without Spike, the JoCo ticket would not be a PLAS ticket, nor would it be a United parliamentary ticket with the female libertarian on top and the progressive male on bottom, consecutively ranked.

    It’s elementary; if you take Watts off second, well, no sh… sherlock.

    Abbott: I say Who’s on first, What’s on second, I Don’t Know’s on third.

    ……

    Costello: Same as you! Same as YOU! I throw the ball to who. Whoever it is drops the ball and the guy runs to second. Who picks up the ball and throws it to What. What throws it to I Don’t Know. I Don’t Know throws it back to Tomorrow, Triple play. Another guy gets up and hits a long fly ball to Because. Why? I don’t know! He’s on third and I don’t give a darn!

    Abbott: What?

    Costello: I said I don’t give a darn!

    Abbott: Oh, that’s our shortstop.

  28. Spike is not a leftist progressive.
    He WAS a neocon.
    He says he is now an anarcho-capitalist libertarian entrepreneur.
    Right?
    Well, that is not a leftist/progressive either one.
    You can’t have it both ways!

  29. LP in Orlando,
    Remove The Spike.
    Install a leftist/progressive.
    Build a fusion ticket.
    Build a PLAS campaign.
    If you build it, they will come.

  30. Wrong. He is a leftist progressive free market anarchist entrepreneur. Even when he was a neocon he was a my little pony brony and his leftism has only grown. You are trying to crash the first and only real plas ticket.

  31. Spike is an anarchist without adjectives. He is clearly a leftist anarchist. Just because he is an entrepreneur in media and formerly web design does not make him a rightist. Like the great yoda vermin love supreme he is a progressive leftist anarchist libertarian pony sorcerer.

  32. Wrong,
    If vermin love supreme and Spike are both progressive leftist anarchist libertarians, (which is impossible)
    what were they doing running for the Libertarian party ticket?
    They did not mention being a fusion or PLAS ticket.
    Not only was Spike a neocon, he was a Zionist also.
    Again, you can’t have it both ways.
    And make stuff up.

  33. “…progressive leftist anarchist libertarian…”
    Impossible.
    You can be a leftist progressive anarchist.
    Or a leftist libertarian anarchist.
    But you can’t be a progressive leftist anarchist libertarian.
    Reality just doesn’t work that way.
    But you can make stuff up.

  34. They were not running as a plas ticket. We just got lucky and got one anyway. He was a Zionist but isn’t anymore since he is an anarchist and opposes all governments. That would include the government of Israel. And every other nation state.

  35. Reality does work that way. There are a whole bunch of progressive leftist anarchist libertarians. That’s just how it is.

  36. Freud was a fraud. There is zero independent, reproducible, tested scientific evidence for his suppositions.

  37. Why is Space Cadet Commander Coty Banks Quirk obsessed with the cock of Milnes?

    Is he into GFILFs?

  38. “Pyramid Pile of Penis on June 7, 2020 at 1:49 pm said:
    Why is Space Cadet Commander Coty Banks Quirk obsessed with the cock of Milnes?

    Is he into GFILFs?”

    Don Grundmann, or somebody trying to sound like Don Grundmann?

  39. Mr. Lake has not been heard from in many years now. PPoP is copying his nickname, but it’s Egyptian aka Nathan Norman aka William Saturn, the supercomputer, and many other AKAs.

  40. HOW MANY POSTS IN THIS THREAD BY THE TROLL-IN-CHIEF WITH ITS MULTIPLE FAKE NAMES ???-

    30-40-50 ???

  41. LP in Orlando next month.
    Keep The Spike.
    Build a fusion ticket.
    Build a PLAS campaign.
    If you build it, they will come.

    Also, Orlando is not about the presidential ticket. As OP correctly notes: Although the party already chose its national ticket last month via an electronic convention, it still must elect party officers and work on the platform and bylaws.

    “HOW MANY POSTS IN THIS THREAD BY THE TROLL-IN-CHIEF WITH ITS MULTIPLE FAKE NAMES ???-

    30-40-50 ???”

    Every. Single. One.

  42. “Spike should be replaced with Mondes honestly.”

    Silly sour grapes. Spike’s eloquence on the issues du jour creates more inroads for the LP than Monds’ skin tone alone. Media, protesters and average black voters understand tokenism. It’s not a new phenomenon to them and they are not impressed by it. Monds is a great guy, but needs a good public speaking coach. He may be a much better candidate by 2024.

  43. Spike and Anarchy is the A and S in real life PLAS.

    Add an L and a P and on to victory!

  44. John Monds ran for office as an LP candidate in Georgia 4 times, and did better than most LP candidates do. I think he would have done fine as the LP’s vice presidential nominee.

  45. There are many real Andys. Perhaps over a million, all told.

    Monds did well running in a 2-way race where there were many supporters of one of the two big parties, but one of them did not have a candidate. He didn’t do anything spectacular by LP standards in race(s) against both a Democrat and a Republican running for the same office. It’s not that he is completely horrible, it’s just that Spike is degrees of magnitude better at eloquently addressing issues, including ones brought up by BLM protesters, and thus connecting with those audiences. It far outweighs that Monds is black and he isn’t. All of your sour grapes are in any case a waste of time, since Spike Cohen is the candidate and will remain the candidate til the general election. The delegates made the correct choice, and even if you irrationally dislike it, it isn’t going to change.

  46. “Monds did well running in a 2-way race where there were many supporters of one of the two big parties, but one of them did not have a candidate. He didn’t do anything spectacular by LP standards in race(s) against both a Democrat and a Republican running for the same office.”

    John Monds got 4% of the vote running for Governor of Georgia in a three way race against a Democrat and a Republican. That is better than average for an LP candidate.

  47. UNACCEPTABLE to have a candidate with a name coming from his circumsized DICK!

  48. “It far outweighs that Monds is black and he isn’t. All of your sour grapes are in any case a waste of time, since Spike Cohen is the candidate and will remain the candidate til the general election. The delegates made the correct choice, and even if you irrationally dislike it, it isn’t going to change.”

    I voted for Monds for VP, but I don’t have any sour grapes.

    I’m not overly enthused with the Jorgensen/Cohen ticket, but at least the LP finally has candidates on its presidential ticket that I can comfortably say are in the libertarian quadrant of the Nolan Chart, and are not con-artists from the major parties looking to take advantage of, and/or subvert, the Libertarian Party.

  49. But, John Monds was treated far worse at the Libertarian convention than George Floyd ever was in Minneapolis. You all basically called him a nigger and lynched him.

  50. “But, John Monds was treated far worse at the Libertarian convention than George Floyd ever was in Minneapolis. You all basically called him a nigger and lynched him.”

    LOL! This is one of the most ridiculous things ever posted here.

  51. 4 percent for governor is pretty run of the mill for the L.P.

    The relative performance of L.P. Candidates at that level often has a lot more to do with how disliked the democratic and republican nominees are, whether libertarian candidates are allowed in major party debates at all, and whether there is any other minor party on the ballot for that office than their own efforts.

    Georgia has no other state level third party, and additionally is one of the few states that goes to a runoff if no one gets a majority rather than seating a plurality winner. So, the L.P. Tends to do relatively well even in state races there, and particularly when democrats and republicans nominate even worse candidates and attack each other even more than usual.

    Spike nickname comes from his my little pony fetish, not his dick. The people claiming with zero evidence that it has anything to do with his dick are the dicks who are obsessed with dicks, not him. Milnes is just deluded like that; Norman though is just trolling for lulz.

    Monds didn’t fail to capture the presidential or VP nominations because he is black. If anything, he did as well as he did in those contests because he is black. No one particularly disliked him, or very few people. But spike clearly made a better case for himself. If monds runs again in the future he may well win one of those nominations. Of course, it’s ridiculous to suggest he was treated worse than a guy who was murdered by police. But then, that’s the point. Pyramid Norman is trolling for lulz.

    It is likewise silly to make this thread about the VP nomination when that has already been decided. This convention is about other party business. But if I wanted to go about it like Nathan norman I’d suggest redoing the presidential nomination and dumping jo jo for vermin and that you all are treating spike worse than Nazis treated Jews in Auschwitz.

    Like my fellow Andy, I am glad the L.P. Nominated actual libertarians on the presidential ticket for a change, even if the top of the ticket could use more excitement.

    I wonder if anyone will ever get around to using this thread to talk about lnc candidates, platform and bylaws or anything else that will actually be voted on or done at this convention, rather than things which won’t be since they were already decided?

  52. Wow! An uncharacteristically excellent and thoughtful comment! Woo Hoo!

  53. “Monds didn’t fail to capture the presidential or VP nominations because he is black.”

    Nobody said that this is why he did not win, nobody serious anyway.

  54. “4 percent for governor is pretty run of the mill for the L.P.

    The relative performance of L.P. Candidates at that level often has a lot more to do with how disliked the democratic and republican nominees are, whether libertarian candidates are allowed in major party debates at all, and whether there is any other minor party on the ballot for that office than their own efforts.

    Georgia has no other state level third party, and additionally is one of the few states that goes to a runoff if no one gets a majority rather than seating a plurality winner. So, the L.P. Tends to do relatively well even in state races there, and particularly when democrats and republicans nominate even worse candidates and attack each other even more than usual.”

    I said that 4% for Governor in a three way race was above average for an LP candidate for Governor. I did not say that it was a super-great performance, and yes, I already know that lots of factors can affect vote totals.

    Reality is that the field of candidates was pretty underwhelming overall, especially for VP, and even more so after Larry Sharpe dropped out. I vote for Monds over Spike because Monds has been with the LP for a good 15 years, and he ran for office 4 times, and unlike Spike, he did not come off as a goofball. I’m not saying that Spike can’t be articulate, because I know he can, but look at his website, and then look at pictures of him with Vermin Supreme holding a stick horsey. This picture already got used in a hit piece against the LP by some publication out of New York where they showed Spike, with a stick horsey, and Vermin, with his boot on his head, and the caption under the picture said something like, “Libertarian Party candidate for Vice President, Spike Cohen, with his mentor, Vermin Supreme.” The two looked like a couple of mentally ill homeless people that one would encounter on the sidewalk of a major city begging for change. I know that there is more to them than that, but a lot of people aren’t going to take the time to look beyond the goofy exterior. I had never even heard of Spike until the last few months. I heard about John Monds running for office in Georgia years ago, and he at least does not come off as a goofball.

  55. “…after Larry Sharpe dropped out.”
    What happened to Tom Knapp?
    He threw in for the vp position. When he did, I thought guaranteed winner.

  56. I am looking forward to the legal rumbling with the US Attorney in front of the jury.
    Which is what should have happened in 1985.
    Let the jury decide!

  57. Up to 50-60-70 troll posts in this thread by troll heads with NOOO brains ??? —

    another politics horror show.

  58. “Did Tom get spiked?”

    You’d have to ask him if he shares a covenant with the Hebrew god.

  59. At least 87 troll goofball comments according to the counter up top. And I guess the answer to whether anyone would talk about anything that would have to do with this part of the convention is obviously no. But what else would you expect from troll goofballs?

    Knapp, if you paid any attention , was never a serious VP candidate. He said He claimed to run so he can claim he has run for VP with three different parties. He did zero campaigning, event on the internet.

  60. I believe Tom Knapp got zero votes at the convention. He could not even vote for himself since he was not a delegate.

  61. Yikes!
    My bad.
    So both LP and GP are having conventions in early JULY!
    GP running late and LP half and half.
    Too late for BTP to morph into Lexington Green and nominate a fusion ticket last December, I guess.

  62. The L.P. And greens will now be on the same exact weekend, except the L.P. Already nominated its presidential ticket last month and will now take care of other party business next month.

  63. The green party delegates are currently overwhelmingly for Hawkins and walker who are already the socialist party nominees. Not yet a done deal, but it may as well be, unless you somehow convince committed Marxists to nominate the L.P. Plas ticket of Jorgensen-Cohen . Good luck.

  64. After all, if the third parties are always going to lose, then all this ballot access stuff is moot.
    The democrats and republicans will get theirs. They always do.
    So you might as well retire Richard.
    Where would you like to retire to?
    What would you do there?
    Read? Golf? Gardening?
    I like roses and fig trees, myself.
    Travel?
    I’m a homebody myself.
    You have a nestegg?
    Tom Selleck says three legs on chair.
    Savings, pension, social security.
    AND reverse mortgage.

  65. Don’t forget social life and love life.
    Old people do these things!
    Right up to the end!
    Theater. You have probably seen Hamilton by now.
    I heard there is a new Cats!
    And fundraisers! Quite enjoyable. Especially for charity. Feels good.

  66. So, don’t worry about me, Richard.
    I will probably go much like my uncle a few years ago.
    Died in his sleep, evidently.
    I saw his death scene.
    Lying back in his Lazy Boy. Big screen tv on.
    In rent subsidized elder housing.
    All his bills were paid.
    No booze on his table next to his chair.
    He was a sober alcoholic, mostly.
    Took morphine pills which always ran out before the prescription renewed.
    He had just renewed his scrip, so he was feeling no pain, I guess.
    Ashtray full. Smoked like a clogged chimney!
    His cat was ok. I wound up with it.
    It died last year.
    I don’t think I will get another.

  67. Well, I hope I do not seem like a downer.
    Just musing, I guess.
    Looking forward to see how the Greens and libertarians screw themselves in July.
    Then I get inheritance. Then my birthday!
    Then my bud in CA wants me to gold mine in a very productive area.
    I think I will try online dating!
    Maybe I will get lucky!
    At least not meet someone who robs or kidnaps or kills me!
    Or gives me an STD!
    Maybe Ill get a shelter dog!

  68. “I think I will try online dating!”

    If you are interested in time travel to create an environment for PLAS to thrive and free us from these dystopic times, we suggest you experiment with online dating.
    But perhaps not in the way you might expect.

    We suggest you search for a willing, intact transgender woman (XY chromosome).

    Let us explain why.

    In a nutshell, our studies suggest time travel requires two simultaneous orgasms between two males (double Y chromosome) in close proximity. An intact trans woman is an ideal receiver because the traveler can enter the correct frame of mind (the breeding response). The fields of energy created from an intense prostate orgasm (receiver) combined with an intense phallic orgasm (with an intent to breed) emit the biomes that open a gateway to travel through time. It’s difficult to replicate because there must be a strong emotional connection between the participants and a rare kind of synchronicity in execution.

    We believe (but have yet to prove) the ratio of orgasmic intensity to synchronicity of the response determines the moment in time the traveler will go. These are difficult to measure. Initial experiments were with homosexual males but we have had more promising results between heterosexual cis males (with a will to breed) and heterosexual intact trans women.

    The current promotion and glamorizarion of transgenders in media is a deliberate attempt to foster the frame of mind to make time travel possible in a controlled setting. We believe time travel in this manner has happened before but went out of control. This is why the Abrahamic religions banned coital relations between males. But we are in a new era today and we have made much progress.

    This may be the only way for PLAS to succeed so we suggest you do this if you really want to actualize it.

  69. “I think I will try online dating!
    Maybe I will get lucky!
    At least not meet someone who robs or kidnaps or kills me!
    Or gives me an STD!
    Maybe Ill get a shelter dog!”

    You might get lucky on the dating front with a shelter dog, but I doubt dogs are much into online dating. I haven’t tried dating outside the species, so that’s just a guess. Good luck either way.

  70. Jim,
    Progressive Libertarian Alliance Strategy.
    It is a proposal for vote maximization and coordination between the Green and Libertarian parties.
    A fusion ticket and a PLAS campaign should result in a close plurality victory for the ticket and 50/50 downticket ballots.
    Click my link.

  71. Wouldn’t it be interesting if because of Covid-19, the only way for the GP and especially the LP to get full ballot access is PLAS!
    LOL!

  72. There’s a typo in what I wrote. It is “bions” not “biomes”.

  73. Mere 80-95 troll posts in this thread

    — by the usual troll suspects ???

    BAN trolls on BAN.

  74. So-called fake name *Ban Demo Rep* = Troll-in-Chief = TIC head.

    BAN trolls on BAN — esp TIC heads.

  75. So called fake name demo rep is the troll in chief aka tic head. Ban trolls on ban, especially tic demo rep.

  76. I don’t know why tic demo rep keeps undercounting the troll posts in this thread. Every single comment in this thread, especially his, are all troll comments. To get the number of troll comments just scroll up to the top to see the number of comments.

  77. Plas stands for pedophiles lusting anal sex. Glad I could help explain it for you.

  78. There is no btp to transform into a Lexington green party. Btp was on the ballot only once, in 2008, in the three easiest states for president. One of those states, Florida, is no longer an easy state because they changed how they interpret their law. Btp continued to exist as a webpage and yahoo forum/list until 2012 and never again got any other candidates on the ballot for anything. It hasn’t existed at all even as an online forum since then. If you want to create an online forum or page, you can. If you want to call it Btp, you can. If you want to call it Lexington green you can. If you want to try to get it on the ballot you can. Even under those names if you so choose although that would be weird since there’s already a green party in some places named Lexington. But regardless of what you call it you would be starting from zero. There is no btp to transform into anything. It has not existed for 8 years and barely existed before that.

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