Here is a link to a recent article from The Atlantic on proportional representation for the US House, of which Lee Drutman of the New America Foundation is an advocate, and the different ideas of other reformers:
Here is his recent column in The Washington Post in defense of more political parties in the United States:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/05/more-political-parties-democracy/
And, here is a link to New America Foundation’s recently published paper titled “More Parties, Better Parties: The Case for Pro-Parties Democracy Reform, in which Drutman calls for Fusion as short and medium term goal and PR as a long-term goal:
https://www.newamerica.org/political-reform/reports/more-parties-better-parties/
More far left commie crap from FAKE NEWS sources.
ONE ELECTION DAY
EQUAL NOM PETS / FILING FEES
PR
APPV
TOTSOP
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PENDING CONDORCET
AZ is back to eating pets.
Eat me!
No, eat me!
You’ll feel better if you consume me as an edible.
You should come to my town. We eat pets and pot all the time down there, and we’ll eat Pat too if the price is right.
TJ ain’t got shit on Detroit as a border town. You boys eat pets? We eat people!
We need at least 200 “national representatives” as part of PR.
The concern I have about proportional representation is that it might end up in a situation where constituents in an electoral district are represented by a party they don’t like because the party did well in the municipality overall. It’s definitely a voting system that challenges local determination.
TOTAL VOTES / TOTAL MEMBERS IN LEGIS BODY = EQUAL VOTES TO ELECT EACH MEMBER
HIGHEST SURPLUS VOTES DOWN- REPEAT
LOWEST LOSER VOTES UP – REPEAT
ALL VOTES COUNT
BOTH MINORITY RULE AND MINORITY REPRESENTATION
SG, terrible idea. Anything which redistributes power to centralize it should be opposed. One of the great tragedies of your nation’s history is the growth of its landmass and population to the point that a good portion of its citizens came to be in a situation little different (at least in any positive respect) from the tyranny people who may or may not have been their ancestors rebelled against a quarter millennium earlier – effectively, rule by a tyranny based thousands of miles away. The situation is made worse, not better, by the intervening distance being populated by mankind in the hundreds of millions rather than primarily by sea creatures and a few passing ships of men.
Thus, whatever diminishes the sovereignty of states via a vis your formerly federal government should be opposed. Within states, the relative independence of counties and cities is of utmost importance. Within those, the independence of local farming communities, rural enclaves, urban neighbourhoods etc ought to be encouraged, perhaps less formally. Most importantly of all, government as a whole needs to be kept out of the affairs of family, church, business, charities, fraternal societies, and so on.
Automistic individualism, however, should only be permitted to those who require nothing at all from society, including any communication or contact of any kind. Those who can find a way to survive without being detected may have that privilege, since by definition nothing can be done to stop them. I’d add that decentralization would make it rather difficult to marshal any significant resources devoted to fereting them out. Otherwise, automistic individualism paradoxically encourages hypercentralization, since it removes the social glue of local and voluntary institutions and replaces them with a central regime that is horrifically ignorant, inefficient, and destructive (Stalinism or Maoism being ultimate examples).
USA troops to Ukraine? Really? Whatever side they’d be fighting on would be starting another world war in Europe, except this time both sides will have nukes. And you’re worried about electoral district sovereignty vis a vis municipal? Talk about missing the forest for the trees!
So, AZ does want to require voters to rank candidates, not just candidates rank candidates. I thought so. Both are of course terrible ideas. Neither may know how they should be ranked, only who their personal choice is. Second choice is irrelevant when those options are, say, the pit and the pendulum, or communist and fascist, etc. You might rank street gang leaders or mafiosi with equal confidence.
Equally bad, tabulations of votes are far more likely to be manipulated and cheated, apart from voters being far more confused in trying to vote that way to begin with. The average voter has difficulty remembering a single candidate name he supports, as long as first and last names are monosyllabic he has a better shot at it. Multiple names for multiple offices are way too much. Even party names are a bit much. The party animal spirit mascot symbol is probably as close to ideal as we can get for this voter.
Then we get to vote counting. It may be manual, automated, or combination thereof. If manual, the average vote counter is only proficient in counting the fingers of one hand, and many are missing fingers, among other parts. The automation introduces both unintended as well as maliciously programmed errors. For multidistrict elections, there are also reporting and transmission problems. Lack of transmission fluid is the least serious of those. When you combine all of these levels of intentional and unintentional error, it’s no wonder that this leads to communist scum being declared winners.
TROLL MORONS –
PUBLIC PRE-ELECTION CANDIDATE RANK ORDER LISTS OF ALL OTHER CANDIDATES.
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DOES PUTIN THE KILLER TYRANT LOVE THE DEAD BODY COUNTS IN UKRAINE MORE THAN ONCE A DAY – ESP OF DEAD RUSSIANS ???
The garbage comment on July 8, 2023 at 9:20 pm is from Robert K Stock.
Atomistic, not automistic. My English is better than that. I was being lazy with that one. I should of course mention that the only thing which would be worse would be world government.
Some ignorant idiots have accused me repeatedly of fascism, apparently without the most basic understanding of what Mussolini meant by the term. It means exactly the opposite of what I said in my previous comment. The fascist state is highly centralized, and within society at large, all institutions of any kind are heavily intervened with, regulated, subsidized, taxed, and otherwise continuously raped by the centralized state. These other social bodies are the corporations of Mussolini’s fascism – not modern business firms using the corporation business model.
The basis of fascism is the Roman bundle of sticks bound to an axe handle or axe. The handle is the state, and all social institutions are bound to it. It also represents a symbol of state power, as the fasci contained the rods used by agents of the state for corporal punishment, as well as the axe used for beheading. At the same time, binding them together symbolizes strength through unity. The word literally means bundle of sticks, and “faggot” is derived the same term. Faggots are packs of cigarettes in England. As a term for sodomites, it probably originated from them being burned at the stake like sticks, or perhaps they just had a notable oral fixation for cigarettes.
Communism is the ultimate fascism. Under communism, not content with merely controlling other institutions, the centralized state absorbs them altogether. The sickle and hammer, while representative of agricultural and industrial labour, are at the same time two forms of capital punishment, the blunt and sharp objects. Communist banners are red to symbolize all the blood their vampire cult revels in shedding.
Fascism also revels in the rapid transformation of society, particularly at the hands of the state. My belief is quite the opposite, putting much greater stock in faith and tradition than has been the post “enlightenment” norm. That’s one of the reasons I argue for radical simplification and localization of laws, and making them extremely difficult to change.
Thus, my ideas are as far as fascist ideology as possible. Fascism is properly seen as far left, just short of even further left communism. My ideas are authentically right wing. I wouldn’t say far right, because I stop short of anarchy.
TROLL MORON AZZ, NOOOOO RANKING OF CANDIDATES BY CANDIDATES OR BY VOTERS. REASONS WHY EXPLAINED IN PRIOR COMMENT. LEARN TO READ ALREADY. I KNOW IT’S HARD.
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IF YOU WANT TO GO FIGHT IN UKRAINE, GO FIGHT IN UKRAINE. IF YOU WANT TO PAY OTHER PEOPLE TO FIGHT IN UKRAINE, PAY THEM. LEAVE ME, MY TAX MONEY, AND MY KIDS OUT OF IT. OTHERWISE THERE MAY BE NOBODY LEFT TO COUNT THE DEAD.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces
WIKI
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DEAD TOTALS SINCE 1914 — VIA LEFT COMMIES VS RIGHT FASCISTS. ???
There are no right fascists. That’s a commie myth you’re repeating. Left commies killed way more people than left fascists.
Have you ever heard a broken record of a bull taking a dump in a cow pasture? Well, you’ve read AZ comments, so you get the idea.
Calm down, PAT. AZ was just a young man storming the beaches of France and dreaming of a skiing vacation in Switzerland. Almost 80 years later, we have AZ as you read him now. Somewhere halfway along the way he lost a bunch of pro se legal cases that got laughed out of court. Now he’s in Bidenland sipping his meds and dinner through a straw, thinking the US is a monarchy, Trump invaded just about every country in Europe and North Africa and killed scores of millions of people before committing suicide in a bunker, and the worst mistake he made in his life was a typographical error. In a few minutes, nursey will bring him an enema.
MAXZIM DONE YET IN COUNTING THE MILLIONS KILLED BY RUSSIAN TYRANTS SINCE RUSSIA GOT FORMED IN A DARK AGE ???
ON TOP OF THE MILLIONS KILLED BY OUTSIDE TYRANTS – ESP IN WW I AND WW II MINI-DARK AGES.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation
NON-MENTION OF SOP ROT IN MOST/ALL OF THE PR REGIMES IN THE WIKI >>> REGIME COLLAPSES >>> ANOTHER ELECTION
All ages are dark, are they not? I’d rather count how many are still alive. I don’t think any will be, in either country, if AZ and his ilk coax us into war with each other. One reason why democracy needs to be much more severely restrained, along with other “enlightenment” claptrap. That would include fascism, socialism, secularism, communism, feminism, egalitarianism, etc.
Environmental extremism is a very big one I forgot to mention. AZ has only political faith (not science) that his supposed solutions would make anything better. As far as I can see, what evidence actually exists shows they are most likely to make things worse. It’s not science, and it’s misplaced faith. He should get on his knees and beg Jesus for forgiveness.
It appears that Drutman believes the American form of primaries with political parties acting as quasi-governmental agencies, particularly when they require ordinary citizens to identify with a party in order to actually weakens parties.
What other countries have primaries? How do they differ? My understanding is that where they happen, they are generally internal affairs of parties. They are in Russia and the UK, for sure. I’m not aware of any countries outside the US where primaries are considered the affairs of the government or people as a whole, rather than those of a party.
MAXZIM — BAAACK TO BAD OLDE RUSSIA SERFDOM —
BAACK TO OPEN TYRANT CZARS AND THEIR OLIGARCH GANGS.
WAIT !!! — THAT’S WHAT THEY GOT IN NEW AGE 1999 PUTIN AND HIS KILLER GANGS – FSB, WAGNER GROUP, ETC.
DISSENTERS FALLING OUT OF TALL BUILDINGS, DYING IN STREET SHOOTINGS, DYING FROM POISONS, ETC.
Please, go talk to someone else. I’m not in favor of any of that and you’ve already proven yourself incapable of reading, understanding, or remembering what I’m actually for. Your distortions of history or Russia now aren’t worth the time it takes to correct them, and I have plenty of other things to do. If you have not been to Russia recently, don’t assume whatever American propaganda tells you is accurate. If anyone here has, I’ll be happy to discuss it with you. AZ, not so much.
I’ve been reading what Max writes. Make government more local, laws simple, have national government involved in military defense only. Local government only involved in settling serious disputes and major crimes. Address minor crimes and less intractable disputes less formally.
Doesn’t sound like tsars, fsb, or Putin to me. We have plenty of bad things in US history and international affairs also. I don’t answer for them because I didn’t and don’t support them.
Yes and no. Those are my goals. I posit them globally, not only for Russia or the US,
In real world short term politics, Putin seems like the least bad short term option for Russia, but only because other likely options seem even worse. I’m happy with the revival of religious faith and national pride, and business climate has improved, weathering western sanctions nicely. My business profits are excellent this year. Foreign travel is more challenging, but I like travelling domestically as well, and it’s a good opportunity to see more of my country.
Keep in mind I never even voted for Putin. I’ve only come to think he’s the least bad current option in the past year. I’m expecting to vote for him next year, but that could change.
No, I do not support monarchy or big government. Pat is correct about my universal goals for all nations. I’ve recently speculated that even military defense areas could be much smaller. Israel and Switzerland have top 20 military forces with less than 10 million people each, and micronations have survived – some for centuries – without invasion.
FSB isn’t tasked with foreign intelligence, and I think local crime should be addressed locally. They have a job to do, and I’ll stand out of their way. As with other institutions, I ideally advocate proper scale. Putin is not a tsar. There’s no serious talk of making him one.
People who go out of their way to make trouble for government may be doing the same for others outside of government. I don’t know who is responsible for any particular suspicious death, and I doubt anyone in the US knows more about it than we do here.
I agree, Russian and American history and foreign affairs hold many tragedies. I have presented proposals that I believe will cut down on that the closer we get to them, based on what has worked relatively better and worse before as well as now.
MAXZIM WROTE —
AZ has only political faith (not science) that his supposed solutions would make anything better. As far as I can see, what evidence actually exists shows they are most likely to make things worse.
— CHANGE AZ TO MAX ZIM
WHAT’S ***BETTER*** ??? — LESS OR MORE MONARCH/OLIGARCH KILLERS ???
HOW CAN THERE BE ANY ***EVIDENCE*** UNTIL A ***CHANGE/REFORM*** HAPPENS ???
AZ needs to go back to the mental asylum.
I’ve explained what I think is better and why, and have offered it up for reasoned debate. AZ has continuously distorted and misrepresented what I believe, asked the same questions repeatedly after they were answered, brought in unrelated nonsequiturs, made absurd statements (examples: only difference between Hitler and Trump is Hitler was jailed, US is a monarchy, worst mistake he ever made was a typo, etc), etc.
When it comes to his own proposals, he doesn’t explain why he thinks they would make things better rather than worse. He claims they are “science,” but admits the scientific method doesn’t apply due to lack of case studies. He cites exaggerated versions of current and past problems, as if his proposals were the only possible alternatives, and doesn’t give any reasons why they would make things better rather than worse. He calls anyone who disagrees with him or asks him questions trolls, morons, etc.
This is not reasonable debate or discussion. I have given reasons why I think directional movement towards each of my proposals would make things better rather than worse. I’ve offered to discuss or debate each of them, separately or together, in pure form or directionally, with anyone willing and able to discuss them rationally. That obviously doesn’t include AZ.
My proposals, unlike AZ, are not political faith. My faith is religious, specifically Russian Orthodox Church. My political views are based on my study of what has actually worked better and worse in real life , historically and internationally, to derive directional movement. My long term or ideal proposals are each of those directions distilled to a maximum level. I freely admit I could be wrong about any of them, including directionally, or even all of them. That’s why I ask for reasonable discussion. AZ is clearly incapable. If anyone capable is willing, I remain open to it. That’s not faith, unlike the AZ approach.
If there’s no evidence, there’s no science. AZ question is loaded, and thus not applicable. I don’t play those games.
I don’t know if AZ was ever in a mental hospital. My layman’s assessment is that he’s crazy, which is obviously not a medical diagnosis or indicative of any proposed course of treatment. I don’t see anything inherent in his rants here which would by itself indicate he’s a danger to himself or others. If he doesn’t voluntarily seek help, I see no evidence of a need for involuntary commitment. I don’t think it’s likely he will voluntarily seek help.
Anyone reasonable (not AZ) have questions? Opinions about what works better directionally as far as my proposals or competing proposal? Opinions about why I’m right or wrong, at least directionally, about any given one or several? Any evidence or reasoning as to why?
Again: not AZ, for reasons already explained.
I think you’re right, at least directionally, on each of the things I’ve seen you write, and your reasons make sense. I don’t know if I’d go as far on any of them, but then I’ve seen you say the same, or at least certainly not get there quickly. That gives time to assess better whether any direction is correct, as you said yourself. I haven’t engaged much because I haven’t seen much to disagree with or much I could add.
RUSSIA TREATMENT OF OPPONENTS –
BAADE OLDE DAYS — DEATH GULAGS OR MERE BULLET IN HEAD IN LUBIANKA PRISON NEXT TO KREMLIN IN MOSCOW.
NOW – ALL THOSE STRANGE ACCIDENTS AND MEDICAL PROBLEMS – ENDING IN DEATH
Speculation from know it all AZ + non sequitur.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2023/07/11/utah-supreme-court-scrutinizes-process-that-sliced-states-most-democrat-heavy-district-into-4/70402734007/
Utah Supreme Court scrutinizes process that sliced state’s most Democrat-heavy COUNTY into 4 DISTS
Sam Metz Associated Press
Salt Lake City – The Utah Supreme Court heard arguments Tuesday on whether courts should allow the state’s Republican-majority Legislature to carve up Democratic-leaning Salt Lake County into four congressional districts.
The court fight asks whether state courts can review whether district maps drawn by elected officials violate the state constitution and is the latest battle over how states draw political maps and follows a recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling denying legislatures absolute power to do so.
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PACK or CRACK gerrymander discs.
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PR — PART OF P-A-T
I’m not any part Puerto Rican. That’s fake news.
@Max
Argentina has primaries. They in part are used to screen minor parties from qualifying for the general election.
The general election requires a 45% plurality, or 40% with a 10% lead over the second placed candidate.
Thank you. So you see that as a system worth emulating?
@Max,
The presidential ballot is a blanket primary in which all parties and presidential/vice presidential candidates appear on a single ballot. A voter may vote for any candidate.
The major candidates are running for large coalitions. I think the Peronist coalition has 19 member parties. I don’t know the process for determining who a candidate for nomination is. It might be that each party in a coalition may put forward a candidate.
That part of the primary does not appear to be particularly contested.
Sounds cockamamie to me. Max proposals sound better, at least directionally.