In Maine, parties that wish to qualify for party status need to persuade 5,000 voters to register as members of the party. Earlier this year, No Labels appeared to have finished its Maine registration drive, because its workers had submitted approximately 7,000 registration cards to election officials. However, Secretary of State Shenna Bellows believes that some voters did not realize they had registered into No Labels, and plans to write a letter to each party registration, asking them if they really intended to join the party. See this story.
HOW MANY COMMAND ORDERS FROM DEVIL CITY D/R HQS TO KILL OFF ALL 3RD PARTIES AND INDEES ???
I am not surprised about this news. Getting people to register to vote under the banner of a minor political party, particularly one like No Labels Party, which has no grassroots movement or following, no track record, no announced candidates, no identifiable platform, and of which most people have heard of it, is a difficult sell, so I am not surprised that fraudulent tactics were used to get these voter registrations.
I find it very hard to believe that it’s that easy to change your voter registration in Maine. Although never having seen one, I have to believe that Maine’s voter registration/change cards are clearly marked as such and would look nothing like a typical petition. Pretty cheap shot from the Sec of State there!
Richard, I recall a few years back that there was a similar issue with Libertarians in Maryland (?) where there was government skepticism that all their registrants were still interested in the party. I wouldn’t put it past the Dem SOS there to have done something similar. Whatever happened with that?
It’s not a cheap shot. The typical voter doesn’t think about whether a petition has multiple names or one when they are being waylaid in public places, which should be a felony. Plus the petition con men will offer a fake petition and then just get the signature only on the voter registration card, and transfer the information.
Caveat Elector – Let the voter beware.
It’s the only cure for voter ignorance.
In a free and open election, no voter is “uninformed” or “misinformed”
Every voter is responsible for what the voter knows or doesn’t know.
Otherwise, someone “more informed’ will conspire to take away their choices.
The Secretary of STATE is doing the right thing here. Just a bit of due diligence and housekeeping when fraudulent tactics are used on a mass scale to deceive voters.
Is “Alec” Paul Frankel?
Is “Andy” Fred Sigretti?
Who is Fred Sigretti?
Who is Paul Frankel?
It’s the voters who need to exercise due diligence. No one else can do their voting for them.
I contend that restricting candidates and voters from access to one another is a form of election fraud.
I quote: “Our constitutional system of representative government only works when the worth of honest ballots is not diluted by invalid
ballots procured by corruption. As the Supreme Court stated in a case upholding federal convictions for ballot box stuffing: “Every voter in a federal . . . election, . . . whether he votes for a candidate with little chance of winning or for one with little chance of losing, has a right under the Constitution to have his vote fairly counted, without its being distorted by fraudulently cast votes.” Anderson v. United States, 417 U.S. 211, 227 (1974). When the election process is corrupted, democracy is jeopardized. Accordingly, the effective prosecution of corruption of the election process is a significant federal law enforcement priority.”
Federal Prosecution of Elections Offenses Seventh Edition, Page 1
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/criminal/legacy/2013/09/30/electbook-0507.pdf
Who isn’t Paul Frankel?
Is Andy Paul Frankel?
Is Paul Frankel hiding under Andy’s bed?
Or maybe it’s Andy that’s hiding out under Paul Frankel’s bed?
Maine should have Party Control Officers. When a voter goes to vote In a primary, the voter will announce his name. Then each PCO will give a thumbs up, da, or thumbs down, nyet. The voter may select a ballot for one of the parties that authorized him to vote.
@Alec – What I am saying is that I have to believe that a Maine voter registration form looks much different than a petition form. Here in West Virginia, our mail-in paper registration forms are on manila-colored cardstock with all kinds of boxes on them all over the place that the voter is required to check/complete, including statements about citizenship and providing false information. By design, they look very purposeful and it is blatantly obvious what it is. Petition forms are a completely different animal with lines of voter signatures and addresses sandwiched right after one another – in other words, they look hasty to begin with. IT IS a CHEAP SHOT for their SOS to do this because it sends a chill to the voters registered in that party. The official message will cause some registrants to second guess their affiliation, or possibly question voting for their candidates. It’s definitely a LEFTIST TACTIC.
I understood what you said. Maybe you didn’t understand what I said in response. Try reading it again a few times. Let me know if you’re still having trouble.
In case you missed it, they’re only doing this because they received a large number of reports from voters who discovered they had been duped into switching their registration. Given that most voters would have no reason to question or check their registration status right now regardless of what they did or didn’t sign, that likely means there’s a much larger number of voters who were duped into switching and don’t know it yet. She’s doing due diligence in trying to make sure more of those voters aren’t prevented from voting in the primary they want to vote in.
It won’t do anything bad to anyone who actually did want to register with them. In fact since that’s the default option and a lot of people don’t pay attention to random snail mail they’re not expecting, or fail to follow up even if they do open and read it, it’s likely that there will still be a lot of people who will be prevented from voting in other parties primaries that they wanted to vote in, even despite this letter.
The average person who is going about their day with lots of other things on their mind is not going to think about registration cards having one signature and petitions having more than one signature. Sure, they’ve probably seen both a few times here and there, but it’s not exactly something most people encounter often enough for that thought to even cross their mind in that moment.
Also, some petitions do have one signature. Right next door here in New Hampshire candidate and party petitions have one signature. Some pressure group petitions that don’t actually put anything on the ballot have one signature. And so on.
And some of the people doing registration scams use fake petitions with multiple signatures to confuse voters so when they do just the signature only on the registration card at the end they are less likely to notice that part. Some of the worse ones will even forge the signature on the registration and copy the information and approximately what the signature looks like from the fake petition.
This is why I said being waylaid in public by strangers, or having strangers come to your door, to sign petitions or change your voter registration, should be illegal. Petitions or voter registrations can be sent through the mail, circulated by friends and family members and coworkers and neighbors who know each other, or at a party organizing meeting. Not have people accosted when they go to the grocery store, farmers market, post office, library, festival, etc.
Lastly, I vote for Paul LePage and Donald Trump every chance I get. The Secretary of State is a leftist, but that’s besides the point. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. And she’s right about this one.
Here is a link to their voter registration form:
https://www.maine.gov/sos/cec/elec/upcoming/pdf/voterregcard20.pdf
As I mentioned, like West Virginia’s, there is a lot of stuff on it. Anyone filling one out would require some time and patience. They would HAVE TO BE reading it carefully. I don’t see how anyone could be “duped,” apart from outright fraud if the party affiliation in the upper right is altered and the voter allows someone else to turn it in for them – not gonna happen in any kind of volume.
Jeff Becker, unscroupulous petition circulators dupe people on petitions and voter registrations all the time. Sometimes accusations are false, but in this case it would not surprise me if all, or most of these accusations are true because getting people to register to vote under the No Labels Party banner would be a difficult sell.
The voter signs a fake petition while the person doing registration asks a few questions. Then they just do their signature only on the voter card and the rest gets copied over from the fake petition. Not hard at all.
Also, it’s easier than it looks. A lot of the questions are voluntary and can be left blank.
NOOO PARTY HACK REGISTRATION CARDS.
EQUAL CANDIDATE BALLOT ACCESS VIA NOM PETS / FILING FEES.
Are “Dana” and “Dylan” Paul Frankel? Those posts come off as being written by someone with experience.
“The voter signs a fake petition while the person doing registration asks a few questions. Then they just do their signature only on the voter card and the rest gets copied over from the fake petition. Not hard at all”
This can also be done without the use of a petition. Some people do not really know the difference between a petition and a voter registration form, and people can be told that they are registering to vote, but not be told that it is under the No Labels Party banner.
Yeah, whoever the fuck you’re talking about is the only person who has experience with that. Because logic. Also, if you look at the card, it’s really not a lot of questions, especially if you take out the optional ones. Most of it is instructions, so that makes it look harder than it is. If you highlight what someone actually has to fill out with a highlighter and talk them through it, or ask them questions and fill it out for them, it can be done in about 30 to 45 seconds.
“Fraud” is quite different than being “duped.” That’s a different story if that was what was going on. “Duped” is all on the voter for not reading what they are signing. I remember that from five years ago when petitioning for Don Blankenship and got a lot of negative reactions to his name. So, I eventually just said “independent candidate,” and, since most voters didn’t bother to actually read the petition to see who’s name was printed on it, it cut down 90% of the flak. But I never put any of my own ink on the forms.
@Alec,
The secretary of state said “numerous” not a “large number”. You’re projecting.
No matter what the conclusion of the investigation is, I am still sus about the Secretary of State’s job of verifying voter registration. We are talking about an establishment politician after all. With Maine being a lean blue state overall, we need to be very sus of the secretary of state as there will likely be some partisanship on this. I’d also be sus of No Labels as they are a weird organization that might have ties to big donors.
Telling someone lies to get them to sign something is fraud, even if they can in theory read for themselves and find out the professional con artist is lying to them. This is placing too high of a burden on busy people with other concerns on their mind who are being unexpectedly waylaid in the course of running errands, doing their jobs, trying to enjoy their time off with family, or perhaps having their doorbell rung in the middle of dinner, putting kids to sleep, or any number of other inconvenient times.
This is why I have suggested making it illegal to waylay strangers in public or at their homes for the purpose of signing petitions or changing their voter registration. The whole process relies on some people being distracted and finding it more difficult than it should be to tell someone no who is in their face and asking for help, especially repeatedly. Sure, many people will say no, but if enough professional hucksters and liars ask enough people enough times, enough people will eventually sign, even if they wouldn’t if they were approached at a time when they have adequate time to fully think through what they are being asked to sign without distractions and psychological and time pressures.
Petitions and changes of voter affiliation should be signed by people who know the person who is asking them to sign, or at a public meeting organized for that purpose which they have freely chosen to attend, or perhaps through the mail, or printed off their home computer or public access computer, or at a government office they can visit and sign at in response to an advertisement campaign.
Until and unless this is possible, half measures can be taken. For example, it could be made a serious felony with a long prison sentence and lots of resources for undercover investigations and vigorous prosecution to misrepresent a petition or change of voter registration. It could be made illegal for anyone to circulate a petition more than a mile from their house, or if they haven’t lived at that address for at least ten years. It can be made illegal to pay such people at all, or, failing that, to pay them based on production. They can be made to wear a large sandwich board with their name, address, whether they are being paid, by whom, and how much, etc. They can be required to be licensed and bonded, take a thousand hours of mandatory training courses at their own expense, and remain registered with any jurisdiction they enter with periodic recertification, as well as separate permits and fees for every town, county, borough, etc they enter. They can be required to sit quietly at an information booth with a sign, and only answer questions from members of the public who choose to approach them of their own accord. They can be required to bar paired with an opponent making a case against signing any time they ask someone. They can be required to be on video with sound which is broadcast live as well as archived for later review and accessed by anyone who cares to do so, with prominent signs that any interactions are being recorded and broadcast. They can be required to be both a licensed attorney and a notary public. They can be required to remain in the jurisdiction while the petition is being verified, or until the next presidential primary in the case of voter registration changes of affiliation, and have all signatures they collected thrown out if they don’t show up in court to answer questions under oath within, say, 2 hours of being notified. They can be required to have a large F branded on their forehead. They can be required to remain in a secure facility guarded by sheriff’s deputies while working on these things, leaving only for work under the supervision of armed and uniformed deputies. These are just a few of many possible ways to cut down on this problem.
ANY FRAUD / IMPERSONATION LAWS IN ALL STATES ???
EG – I AM ABE LINCOLN.
GET ME ON THE BALLOTS AND VOTE FOR ME AT LEAST 10 TIMES.
Jeff Becker on May 15, 2023 at 8:19 am said
“‘Fraud’ is quite different than being ‘duped’. That’s a different story if that was what was going on. ‘Duped’ is all on the voter for not reading what they are signing.”
O do not know if this in the case in West Virginia or Maine, but in California there is a statute on the books which says that it is a criminal misdemeanor to make false statements in order to get people to sign petitions to place something on the ballot. Unfortunately, this law is not stringently enforced in California, as there are petition circulators there who violate this law and get away with it on a fairly routine basis. They get away it a vast majority of the time because most of the public is not paying enough attention to catch them, and little effort is put into catching, compiling evidence and prosecuting people for this.
“I remember that from five years ago when petitioning for Don Blankenship and got a lot of negative reactions to his name. So, I eventually just said ‘independent candidate,’ and, since most voters didn’t bother to actually read the petition to see who’s name was printed on it, it cut down 90% of the flak. But I never put any of my own ink on the forms.”
Was Don Blankenship running as an independent candidate, or was he running as a Constitution Party candidate? Did the petition have the word Constitution Party on it? If so, it would have been more accurate to say that the petition was to place a third party or alternative party candidate on the ballot. Independent party could also be used, but this is somewhat of a misnomer, however, one could say that an independent party is a party that is not affiliated with or which operates independently from the Democratic and Republican parties. One could have also said that it was to place a Constitution Party candidate on the ballot. Then if somebody asks about the Constitution Party one could focus on the party.
Jeff Becker said: “Richard, I recall a few years back that there was a similar issue with Libertarians in Maryland (?) where there was government skepticism that all their registrants were still interested in the party. I wouldn’t put it past the Dem SOS there to have done something similar. Whatever happened with that?”
This happened back in 1999 in New Mexico. I am aware of what happened. Libertarian Party activists did work on that drive, and a state investigator looked into it and found no evidence of fraud. I think the problem was that the registration workers did not hand out Libertarian Party literature (pamphlets, fliers, cards, etc…) to everyone who registered. They were given some materials to hand out, but once they ran out of what was given to them they were never given more material, nor did they try to get more material, or photocopy more material themselves.
I have worked on Libertarian Party voter registrations myself and I had ZERO complaints about people being “tricked” because I went to great length to explain to people that it was a voter registration form and not a petition, and I handed out Libertarian Party literature (a pamphet, flier, car, or newspaper) to almost everyone who registered to vote as a Libertarian. A few people did not want to take the literature, or slipped away before I could offer it to them, but the majority of people took the literature when I offered it to them.
Some people are stupid or ignorant, or dishonest, and will claim that they got tricked when they did not, so not all complaints of this nature are legitimate. I would bet that there is a lot of legitimacy to these accusations in Maine because I know that trying to get people to register to vote under the banner of a party with no grass roots activists or following, no track record, no announced candidates, no indentifiable platform, and of which most people have never even heard of this party, is a difficult sell. I also know that there are a lot of dishonest people on the mercenary petition circuit who are not above using deceptive tactics to get people to sign. So I would wager that where there’s smoke, there is probably fire with this No Labels Party voter registration drive in Maine.
For those unaware: Paul Frankel is The One That Got Away. He is the ex boyfriend of Andy Gonzalez. Paul broke up with him in 2019 after Andy started exhibiting deranged behaviour, i.e. screaming at people on the street with a bullhorn claiming Sandy Hook was a false flag, posting badly edited and poor quality YouTube videos on IPR without a title, and stalking other petitioners. Ever since the nasty breakup, Andy thinks everyone and everything he encounters—online and in real life—is Paul. It’s a sad story.
There was an issue in Maryland, among other states, where all their registrants with one party or another were switched to nonpartisan without being asked because the party failed to meet some vote threshold. Separately there have been cases in various states where different parties, both big and small, have been accused of various underhanded and often illegal ways of switching voters party affiliations either completely without permission or through deception. It’s possible Mr. Becker may be conflating different things. I agree with Alec, and disagree with Jeff, that such fraud is entirely doable. I’ve only read about it, but in enough separate cases from different states, parties, and times to believe it goes on, and not trivially rarely. Just how much, I have no actual idea.
Addendum : I don’t know if Alec is serious or exaggerating for effect with his proposed solutions to the problem. Either way, I think his proposals go too far, but the problem is pretty obviously real, and something less drastic in that direction is needed and overdue. I’ve read in past discussions here that a lot of the fraud merchants who do this stuff travel around all the time, so maybe it should be addressed at the federal level, maybe starting with congressional hearings.
Jim Riley, what do you mean by projecting? As I understand the term, it refers to accusing others of your own shortcomings. Is this what you meant? If not, what did you mean ?
I also don’t understand the distinction you made between numerous and large number. Please explain?
Will,
Ok, you got me. I was exaggerating. But it was to make a point. And I think you understood it, and that we agree with each other, at a minimum directionally.
Lastly for now, I just noticed I made s typo in the last paragraph of my comment at 9:04 this morning. They can be required to bar paired with an opponent; bar should have been work. I’m not sure how that happened.
Another idea : they can be required to verbally tell each prospective signer their name, residence address, telephone number, who is paying them, and how much. As well as hand out a card with the same information. Then they should be required to verbally read the full text of whatever they are asking people to sign and any and all instructions included on the form, as well as answer any and all questions, no matter how long it takes. If any answers are wrong, the signatures they collect should be deemed void.
Regardless of what rules are put in place, they are not worth anything without a significant enforcement budget and adequate staffing for that purpose, and prosecutors who are not afraid to throw the book at anyone who gets caught.
Will also makes a good point about the federal aspect here. This kind of stuff ultimately helps determine who makes it through the primaries for president and US Congress, so it’s not just a state by state matter, especially since as Will pointed out a lot of these hucksters travel state to state habitually.
@Alec,
How many voters has the SOS heard from?
Why are you asking me? Try asking them. I believe them that it was enough to warrant their concern. However many it was, that’s a small fraction of those who were actually duped, since there’s little or no reason for anyone to be checking their party registration status right now.
And you still have not answered either of my previous two questions. What did you mean by projecting, and how is numerous different from large number in this regard? Answering with a question did nothing to shed light on either of those.
Also, just noticed James at 8:26. He is correct on both points, but there’s no maybe about it. No labels is definitely a globalist elitist shady operation of the worst kind. Hopefully it will backfire on the orchestrators. Those of you making the case the SOS is biased here do have a point. But, between the two, and especially when you consider the added dimension of shady registration contractors and subcontractors who have their own reasons to trick people which are purely financial rather than ideological, I think the much larger suspicion should be cast on the shady out of state globalist elitist No Labels quasi party plus the shady out of state grifters and drifters they brought in to dupe unsuspecting Mainers into unintentionally changing their party registration. If there’s any wrongdoing on the SOS part in this, hopefully that will come out too, and help us get a Republican in that office as soon as possible.
What exactly is the problem with the letter the SOS sent out? Did you all read it? I mean yeah, you can legitimately question her motivations. I’m a Trump supporter, formerly a conservative Democrat, then a long time independent who often voted for minor party candidates, and for the last 7 years MAGA GOP. She’s a dummycrat. I naturally don’t trust anyone who remains an elected dummycrat these days. Fair enough, I’m skeptical of her motivations. I can even take a guess as to what they are.
I’ve read the No Lapels propaganda about how they want to make sure President Trump can’t win back the office that was stolen from him. I’ve read the Dummyrat bellyaching about how they’ll screw up and accidentally help him win instead. I hope the dummy rat fears prove to be warranted. So, that probably definitely but definitely probably played a role. Actual complaints from town clerks who got actual complaints from actual voters no doubt also played a role. How much of a role did each play? I don’t know, but I do know that No Labels obviously has plenty of money for lawyers and investigators to look into it. Happy digging, fellas.
But as for the actual letter itself? It just advises voters to look into it and switch back if they were misled into switching their enrollment by mistake. They would still have to go through the effort of printing or obtaining the form, filling it out, and getting it to their town clerk. There wasn’t so much as an enclosed registration postcard or form or a stamped self addressed envelope. Someone would have to be fairly motivated to even bother.
You know what else could backfire? This letter and the publicity it generates, to whatever extent its intentions are less than purely civic minded. More people who ignored the pushy paid political peddlers in public places might read the news coverage and look up No Labels as a result. Some percentage of such inquisitive readers will sadly be persuaded by the no labels pabulum and propaganda, and decide of their own accord and without undue pressure or tricks to switch their enrollment to the “no labels” label. That’s their right, and God bless these fools.
Between the state level dummy rat bureaurat and the super sketchy globalist elitists trying to gum up and throw the Presidential election with their inherently deceptive “no labels” label, the latter is clearly the greater evil . If Donald Trump shaking up shady and corrupt business as usual stirs up these usually behind the scenes corrupt slimeballs to this extent, you know he must be doing a lot of things right. He has these rats running scared and scurrying for shelter, and it couldn’t happen to a more deserving assembly of filthy rodents. Godspeed, Sir!
Addendum:
Best way to cut down on these kinds of registration games, and many other problems with lazy, ignorant, halfway illiterate, easily manipulated, redundant unregistered, and sometimes downright ineligible voters? Get rid of motor voter and deputy registrars altogether. Henceforth, only allow voter registration in person at the town clerk’s office. No excuses, no exceptions. Similarly, only allow in person voting on election day. Again, no exceptions, no excuses.
Then if you really want to clean the election mess up, make signing ballot measures only legal inside the town clerk’s office with the clerk as a witness. The ballot measure proponents spend plenty of money to persuade voters to back their measures once they make the ballot. They spend plenty of money employing an army of zombies and ghouls to get such measures on the ballot. It’s high time to stop pretending that these are grassroots populist efforts. They’re astroturf. Dispense with the charade, and spend the money on an ad campaign to get voters to come down to the clerk’s office to sign your measure instead. Then if you really still feel the need to employ circus clown road show rejects, carnival barkers, three card monte impresario, and rootless cosmopolitan derelicts, and there aren’t enough jobs available handing out strip club slim Jim’s, by all means, pay them to accost strangers and talk them into going to the clerk’s office to sign your measure. It would at the bare minimum improve public hygiene.
@Gary – Yes, I agree. Voting is more of a responsibility than a right. Register in-person, vote in-person, and only allow early voting by coming in-person to an authorized government location (NO DROP BOXES!!).
But gotta laugh at your description in the last part though. Ha ha!! Is it really that bad out there? I haven’t done any initiative stuff.
@Alec – “Then if somebody asks about the Constitution Party one could focus on the party.” No, that’s not an effective way of collecting signatures. Time is of the essence out there and spending time getting involved in lengthy political discussions with voters is a sure fire way to slow you down and miss the petition deadline. If parties want to reach their voters, there are plenty of opportunities to set up displays at various fairs, festivals, and other public events around the state.
Why do we need early voting at all? And yeah, it can get that bad, although at least some of the transient con artists manage to clean up nicely, lie eloquently, and not come off as aggressive panhandlers or intoxicated vagrants. Others, not so much.
I think you got Alec and Andy confused. Understandable error, since both have 4 letters and start with A.
I seriously doubt many people would want to register to vote under the No Labels Party banner on their own. A party that does not really stand for anything and whose primary purpose is to swing the presidential election is not very inspiring.
Mandating that initiative and referendum petitions have to be signed in front of election clerks is not going to work. Election offices have limited hours and few people are going to have the time to go to an election office to sign a petition.
There are honest petition circulators out there. The bad ones could be weeded out if people recorded them lying to people and then had criminal charges pressed against them. I am surprised this does not happen more often.
Nonsense. People make time on their lunch breaks or take a few minutes off from work to complete needed tasks at government offices with limited hours all the time. They could have a window of months to do so. That’s a transparently bad excuse.
Jeff Becker, I know what I am doing when it comes to collecting petition signatures. My best days for minor party/minor party candidate petitions were 520 in Oklahoma, 517 in North Dakota, 485 in North Dakota, 450 in North Dakota, 434 in Ohio, 407 in Ohio and 400 in Pennsylvania. These were all for one petition in one day and all were for the Libertarian Party. I have also collected petition signatures for the Constitution Party and I had a day Arkansas and one in North Dakota where I got over 300 signatures which were my best one day totals on Constitution Party petitions, I think they were 311 and 316 signatures.
Besides that, what are your biggest accomplishments in life? Outside of signature harvesting, I meant. Are you like the rain man of autograph collectors?
@Andy – OK, you’ve got me beat. I recall one day on the order of 350 at the Forest Festival, and close to that at the Buckwheat Festival. These were events where folks were lined up for the parades and food lines. Again, no time for getting into conversations with them other then instructions on where to sign/print.
“Besides that, what are your biggest accomplishments in life?”
Andy Gonzalez holds the record for the most cocks sucked in one setting: 69. His friends had to take him to the hospital afterwards to get his stomach pumped. Cum overdose.
Jeff Becker, saying the party name does not necessarily lead to a long conversation, but if somebody asks about it you need to have short bullet point answers. I also usually carry a flier or fliers, and or a lamented flier, on a separate clip board which explains what the party or candidate is about which I show to people who ask questions so I can talk to other people while they are reading it.
Vuh China,
Well shut my mouth. I’m duly impressed.