Chris Weigant has written this interesting essay for the Huffington Post about the possibility of an electoral college tie this year. The defenders of the current system for choosing a president virtually never even discuss this flaw. It was not a danger for the presidential elections 1908 through 1960, because the Electoral College had an odd number of members those years. It has only been a danger starting in 1964, due to the 23rd Amendment, which gave the District of Columbia three electoral votes.
Any chance to merely instantly repeal the 23rd Amdt — as a super- emergency step to STOP CIVIL W-A-R II and a step to abolish the Art. II, Sec.1 — 12th Amdt timebomb Electoral College ???
See the 1860 timebomb election and the 620,000 dead Americans in Civil WAR I in 1861-1865.
Remedy –
Uniform definition of Elector in ALL of the U.S.A.
P.R. legislative and A.V. executive/judicial.
Way too difficult for —
(1) the EVIL minority rule MONSTERS in the gerrymander minority rule Congress and all 50 State legislatures (esp. in the many very small States) and
(2) the much worse armies of brainwashed MORONS in the general public who are brain dead ignorant about the minority rule gerrymander math in the U.S.A.
This is not a flaw. It would be great if the election were thrown to the House. It would remind people we still have a Constitution.
It is absolutely important that the power to elect the president remain in the hands of the states.
During times of political instabilty, like the civil war, it essential to have the Electoral college in place.
And if the House ties, we have already done that. In 1800, we had a deadlocked House, until Jefferson won.
In 1824, the 3rd place guy, Henry Clay, backed John Quincy Adams, so Adams won and Jackson lost. But Jackson came back and won in 1828.
A recipe for political instability will be if Obama gets more popular votes than McCain, yet McCain becomes president. As to the War of 1861-1865, it happened under the existing electoral college system.
I don’t consider a tie in the Electoral College to be a flaw. It’s certainly no more a “flaw” than not having any candidate get elected because a majority of the Electoral College wasn’t captured. However, the Constitution provides a remedy for both situations. Maybe the real problem is that we teach people that we live in a Democracy. We don’t and never have. We live in a system that provides us with checks and balances, and the Electoral College is one of those checks and balances. Let’s face it. If Obama lost the election even though he had the most votes, people would grumble, and some would try to do something such as the National Popular Vote scheme, but the majority of Americans would end up doing nothing about it. After all, slightly less than half of them would end up having their candidate get elected, and the remainder are sheep. If they weren’t, they would have stopped voting for the Dems and Reps long ago and actually got involved in the political process to include alternative candidates. That’s precisely an argument to keep the Electoral College in place.
Only political MORONS can NOT be aware that the Electoral College happened ONLY because of the inability of the top secret 1787 Federal Convention oligarchs to agree on a uniform definition of Elector in U.S.A. elections — due to SLAVERY, property ownership qualifications, etc. etc.
This is 2008 — NOT the EVIL STONE AGE of 1787-1789 or even in 1800-1828 when the party hacks in the gerrymander Congress chose Prez candidates.
How stable were things in Nov-Dec 2000 with the Bush v. Gore machinations in Florida and in the Supremes ???
How stable were things in the 1876-1877 Electoral College machinations ??? — leading to the destruction of black civil and political rights up to the 1950s in the southern ex-slave States.
How many of the 50 States manage to have statewide elections for State Governors and still survive ???
Is a Prez allegedly the Prez of ALL the People — or just the People of the gerrymander Electoral College States/DC that elected him/her ??? Duh.
Only 2008 MORONS can NOT detect that both the Donkeys and Elephants have been doing the standard monarchy- tyrant stuff regarding the office of Prez since 1932 — often seen in totally rotted regimes.
The person on the infamous White Horse saving the regime — i.e. getting an EVIL and VICIOUS TYRANT — see Napoleon, Hitler, etc. etc.
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ABOLISH the timebomb Electoral College N-O-W — or get ready for Civil WAR II between the armies of leftwing and rightwing powermad control freak fanatics in the U.S.A.
NONPARTISAN nominations and elections of all elected executive officers and all judges using Approval Voting – vote for 1 or more, highest win.
Some of the protest freaks can run, get a few votes and have *moderates* elected to be Prezs, Guvs, Hizzoner Mayors, etc.
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Also ABOLISH the minority rule U.S.A. Senate with its many small State FREAK blowhard U.S.A. Senators.
Sorry – WY [smallest pop State] is NOT equal to CA [highest pop State] — regardless of Senate fanatics.
P.R. NOW for all legislative body elections.
History plainly shows that the U.S.A. will NOT survive much longer with its ANTI-Democracy gerrymander systems.
The United States is a democracy. My Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary says a democracy is “a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation, usually involving periodically held free elections.” There is nothing in that definition that excludes having a constitution that protects minority rights from action by the majority.
In the late 1950’s and early 1960’s, the John Birch Society promoted the slogan, “This is a Republic, Not a Democracy.” And that John Birch Society campaign has had a long-lived effect on how people use the words “democracy” and “republic”. A republic, properly defined, is just a democracy that doesn’t have a monarch.
Gee Demo Rep, are you calling me a MORON for having a difference of opinion with you?
People don’t often agree when forming rules for things, especially government committees. So the Electoral College wasn’t some evil plan that came about because they couldn’t agree. It was simply the compromise they used to forge the plan of government for the nation. It has stood the test of time, meaning it did what it was designed to do without fail, and just because it hasn’t performed to your satisfaction, is no reason to get rid of it as it has served others quite well.
Well, let’s look over your post. How stable were things you ask in 2000 after Bush/Gore and again in 1876-1877? Well, I didn’t see any revolutions fomenting or civil wars breaking out so things couldn’t have been all that bad. And the civil rights of blacks were taken away long before 1876. They were taken away before we even became a country, so it didn’t have anything to do with the Electoral College.
As for governorships, regional differences are far greater interstate than they are intrastate. That’s why I prefer a check a balance in place to protect the interest of smaller states with small populations.
Sure the Prez is the president of all the people. What’s that got to do with it? He/She would be the president over the people who live in the less then majority Electoral College states that didn’t vote for that person just as much as he/she would preside over the less than majority national populace that didn’t vote for that person in the scheme you propose.
If a civil war does happen again in this country, and I doubt the vast majority on this board will agree with you that that will happen, it’s not going to be between the left and right. It will probably be between the haves and have-nots. And there are plenty of them on both the left and right.
Of course Wyoming isn’t equal to California. That’s why they have less Electoral votes.
I find it interesting that while you keep insulting the ballot access lawyers who try to open up ballot access across the nation, not one of them has saw fit to use any of your legal arguments to further their case. Nor has anyone on this board, for that matter. Especially your oft quoted “separate is not equal” argument. Maybe that should tell you something about the strength of your arguments. Your sharp, legal mind never fails to astound me!
I’ll post no more on this subject. Simply put, your diatribes aren’t worth it.
Steve Z,
I try to ignore our mutual friend, but he keeps posting using a keyboard with a broken shift key.
We almost had a civil war in the period November 1876-March 1877, over the disputed presidential election. It was averted when Hayes signaled that he would withdraw the federal troops from the south.
Democracy = Majority Rule, direct or indirect — nothing more and nothing less.
monarchy / oligarchy = minority rule by 1 / 2 or more but less than a majority, respectively — the old British regime in 1776, Hitler, Stalin, Saddam type regimes, New Age gerrymander regimes.
Constitutional limitations (such as a Bill of Rights) are a totally separate matter.
Much too difficult for New Age math MORONS to understand — and even the brain dead Supremes in their gerrymander cases — due to lots of brain dead lawyers and law school profs filing brain dead amicus briefs.
Sorry – some folks have brains — Sam Adams in dealing with the EVIL British regime in 1773-1775 and John Brown in dealing with the EVIL slavery regimes in 1857-1859.
Most New Age political folks are business- as- usual math and history MORONS — who apparently love having minority rule gerrymander regimes control their MORON lives — with undeclared wars, inflations, depressions, giant govt debts, etc. — standard stuff in EVIL minority rule regimes.
How many more standard MORON responses by the board wonks — who would NOT know a political CRISIS even if it fell on their wonk skulls — especially younger wonk skulls ???
Wait, what exactly do New Age beliefs have to do with gerrymandering? I do not see the connection…
Richard – In answer to your post, these are far different times than they were in 1876. Today, more than half the people don’t even bother to show up at the polls, There are very few States Rightists (certainly not enough to provoke the rest of the nation into a civil war) and I dare say that a large segment of the population would be more prone to a civil war over who won/lost on American Idol rather than who won/lost an election. As long as events don’t interfere with the average American’s pursuit of entertainment, then they’ll live with whatever comes along. As an example, the only reason we haven’t seen mass, violent protests against the Iraq War (I’m not talking Afghanistan here) is because there is no draft to infringe on their private lives. If there was, the college campuses would be returning to the Vietnam protest riots of the 60’s. Typical college campus students will grumble a lot, but in the end, they will live with Bush. However, they will not let serving in the army interfere with their right to party.
Under the National Popular Vote bill, one presidential candidate is guaranteed to get a majority of the nation’s electoral votes. Under the bill, all of the state’s electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who gets the most popular votes in all 50 states and DC. The legislation would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes (270 of 538). So, the winning candidate will always get at least 270 electoral votes. Therefore will never be a tie in the electoral votes and never be a situation in which no candidate gets a majority of the electoral votes. Hence the election of the President would never be thrown into the U.S. House (with each state casting one vote) and the election of the Vice President would never be thrown into the U.S. Senate.
The bill would make every vote politically relevant in a presidential election. It would make every vote equal.
The National Popular Vote bill has been approved by 18 legislative chambers (one house in Colorado, Arkansas, Maine, North Carolina, Rhode Island, and Washington, and two houses in Maryland, Illinois, Hawaii, California, and Vermont). It has been enacted into law in Hawaii, Illinois, New Jersey, and Maryland. These states have 50 (19%) of the 270 electoral votes needed to bring this legislation into effect.
See http://www.NationalPopularVote.com
In 2004 turnout drastically improved, so that it is no longer accurate to say that the number of voters, divided by the potential number of voters, is less than half. It was 60.7% of the adult voting age population in 2004 and will probably be higher than that this November.
Lots of folks do NOT vote since they are functional illiterates — due to rotted public schools — aka publik skools.
How many illegal aliens (technically enemy invaders) are included in the voter base ???
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The wonk NPV scheme is blantantly unconstitutional – in direct violation of Art. I, Sec. 10, para. 3 (NO approval for the Compact scheme so far in the gerrymander Congress) and, even if approved in the gerrymander Congress, 14th Amdt, Sec. 1 (EQUAL protection clause) — the choice of Art. II, Sec. 1 — 12th Amdt Prez Electors is an INTERNAL State function — NOT to be determined by out of State machinations.
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
United_States_presidential_election,_ZZZZ
Replace ZZZZ with 1860, 1876, 2000 for starters to show some of the timebomb E.C. elections.
Count the dead after the 1860 Prez election.
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Each Prez has been de facto elected by a minority of the popular votes since whenever — a plurality of the votes in about half the States/DC having a bare majority of the total E.C. votes — i.e. about 28-30 percent of the popular votes (a leftwing gang or a rightwing gang) de facto elect each recent Prez.
Party on — until things really start happening.
See the 1773 U.K. Tea Tax Act in the gerrymander / hereditary U.K. Parliament — leading to 4 July 1776 — i.e. the formation of the U.S.A.
See the 1854 Kansas-Nebraska Act in the gerrymander Congress — leading to the 1861-1865 Civil WAR and the resulting 13th, 14th and 15th Amdts.
Both acts were business- as- usual wonk stuff at the time in the regimes — despite lots of alarm bell warnings.
REAL Democracy NOW — before it is too late.
re #13 Susan,
What will the NPV compact do about the idiotic process by which the candidates are nominated in the first place?
Chris Weigand is absolutely wrong about the District of Columbia’s delegate having any say when it comes to the case that no candidate has an electoral vote majority.
“As to the War of 1861-1865, it happened under the existing electoral college system.”
Its a good thing we had the Electoral College at that time. The election of 1864 would have been a disaster if it were a national popular vote.
Why not just toss a coin? I bet if you polled the American public about which they would rather have–a lengthy, nasty disagreement about how to proceed and who did or didn’t win; or a coin-toss–they’d choose the latter.
Richard – Actually, I think you’re looking at it inaccurately. What good is it to say that voter involvement improved just because the last Presidential year’s statistics went up? I think you need to look at the four year election cycle rather than the year in which the election news is pounded into the voter’s mind every night on the nightly news. After all, is a voter really involved if he only goes out and votes once every four years? That sounds like real apathy to me. I’m not sure where your getting your statistics from (obviously I’m not calling you a liar – I’m just saying I don’t know your source – I’m getting mine from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html) and that shows that while the percentage in 2004 was over 50% like you state, in the mid term elections of 2006, they were back down to 43.6 percent. That averages out to about 45.9%. And while I can’t talk for other states, in New York State, the off year election stats are abysmal, like in the 30% range. I’m betting that things aren’t so different in most other states, although again, I don’t have anything to back that statement up. But if I’m right, then that puts less then 40% of eligible voters going to the polls in the four year cycle.
Getting into personal opinion again here, while I’d like to see the stats increase this election year, I’m not sure they will. Bush drove people out to vote last time. Either you hated him and wanted him out or you loved him and wanted him in, these two emotions drove people to the polls to vote. Even though Obama is drawing people into the process, it’s not the same as the emotions that drove Bush/Kerry. Many people yawn at McCain and will either stay home or vote third party. That will counteract Obama’s enthusiasm. Hillary’s people are also not happy the way the primary went and many will be staying home also. I know that for a fact from the people coming to my website trying to learn how to do a write in vote. I’m tracing the route back to pro-Hillary blogs and comment sections on news articles where people are posting my site where I have a section on how to do a write in vote in New York State. Some of these people will come around to Obama in the end, but I’m guessing many will just stay home. The love/hate emotions just won’t be there this year.
#7 Only New Age MORONS can NOT be aware that even the Supremes do sometimes overrule their earlier MORON opinions.
Example – in the 1964 gerrymander cases MORON stuff from the 1940s was overruled that had permitted *extreme* indirect minority rule in electing U.S. Reps and ALL State legislatures thru the 1962 elections — i.e. the indirect minority rule math was raised from about 5-15 percent up to 1962 to about 28-32 percent for such offices from 1964 to currently.
Any genius comments from the standard wonks about the mass murders that happened as a direct result of the 1860 Electoral College gerrymander election of Prez Lincoln ???
Of course, no current wonk was around in 1865 to manage to survive the mass murders and make some wonk comment after the last dead soldier / sailor was buried.
Who has the biggest loose cannon mouth to really set things off — McCain or Obama — or perhaps 1 or more of their party hack stooge mouthpieces — especially if there is a 269-269 E.C. tie ???
The Electorial College is Constitutional, sacred, and irrefutable! Kinda like slavery, no votes for non property owners, non whites, non males, some folks being counted as 3/5 of a human being!
Hurray for History! Boo on Progress! Back to the Future!
Starting today let’s destroy automobiles, modern medicine, air craft, and computers! Every, and I mean every, staid, conservative, rock ribbed icon started out as a radical idea!
One more thot on 1864: GOP standard barrier Lincoln and Kentucky Democrat [and later Impeachment target] Andrew Johnson ran and won on the THIRD PARTY ‘Union Party’ ticket!
Just a reminder that much of what we ‘know’ {the world around flood of approximately 4300 BCE was pole to pole and covered the entire global or that Jesus Christ was born in the Roman Catholic Year Zero] is just not true!
bndy
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