On September 1, U.S. District Court Judge Xavier Rodriguez, a Bush Jr. appointee, dismissed the lawsuit San Antonio Firefighters v City of San Antonio, w.d., 5:18cv-745. The case had been filed by the union because it was circulating an initiative petition and the city barred petitioners from the grounds of the city’s senior centers, and also barred them from most of the area around public libraries. The opinion says those areas are not traditional public fora. Here is the 26-page opinion.
This is a very bad decision, and it contradicts other court rulings, such as the Groene v Seng case out of Nebraska, which was decided in the 8th Federal Circuit Court.
What do they mean that libraries are not traditional places to petition? Are they also saying that old people are not interested in signing petitions? Does this also mean that the DNC and the Republican Party will decide who we can vote for? Does this mean that people in libraries and older voters can’t decide to sign petitions for third parties or independent candidates?
ALL entrances/exits to/from public property are NOT *public fora* ???
esp buildings — USA Congress, White House, SCOTUS — or even ALL of DC ???
When did *tradition* END — NOT to be added to ???
One more *politics* case for SCOTUS.
Sounds like bovine scat. Smells like bovine scat, it must be bovine scat.
Julián Castro was mayor of San Antonio when the policy was instituted.
Will he and the other mayors or former mayors running for president speak out on this issue.
Is petitioning permitted outside public libraries in New York, Newark, and South Bend?
Like I said above, federal courts have already ruled that petition signature gathering is legal anywhere the public has access, be it libraries, DMVs, parks, public festivals, college campuses, court houses, etc…, as well as corporate property that is open to the public, such as corporate towns/squares, malls, shopping centers/store fronts.
It is hard work to gather enough petition signatures to obtain ballot access even when you have locations that carry public foot traffic, and it can be damn near impossible to do it when you are run out of all of those locations under the threat of arrest.
Perhaps petitioners would interfere with citizenship classes, or block access to the book incinerators.
ALL PETITION FORMS – VIA POSTAL SNAIL, NEWSPAPERS, MAGS, INTERNET, ETC.
I WANT [SUCH AND SUCH – NOMINATIONS/ISSUES] ON THE [DATE] BALLOTS.
ELECTOR SIG – PRINTED NAME – ADDRESS – DATE SIGNED
NOMINATION / ISSUE RETURN ADDRESS
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NOOOO CIRCULATORS NEEDED.
PART OF SAVE DEMOCRACY — FROM THE TYRANT HACKS – LEGIS, EXEC, JUDIC.
Demo Rep, it costs money to mail petitions, and some people who get them in the mail assume they are junk mail and do not even look at them, and even out of those who fill them out, some fill them out wrong, or forget to mail them back. It also costs money to put petitions in newspapers as inserts, and once again, not everyone fills them out, or fills them out properly, or malls them in on time.
Petition proponents have tried mailers and newspaper inserts, and these methods are generally not cost effective, and usually fail.
It is already possible to download petitions off the internet, fill them out, and mail them in to a petition proponent in a lot of states, but guess what, few people take the time to do this.
So yes, there is still a need for petition circulators, and there is value in face to face in person communication.
@DR,
How would the potential signer know that there was such an initiative?
Andy – voter FORMS — 4.25 x 5.5 inches — 4 per 8.5 x 11
Could be multiple different forms on 1 sheet.
Anybody cut out fast food ads in junk mail ???
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JR – sponsor files full text with SupCt – gets Year-Number >>> Prop 2019-007
I WANT Prop 2019-007 ON THE [DATE] BALLOTS.
MAJOR felony to mess with Prop Number and its text.
John/Mary Q. Doe
Demo Rep, a petition proponent tried the newspaper insert thing for petitions in Washington several years ago, and it proved to be not cost effective. It was cheaper and more efficient to just hire petition circulators.
Also, some states have regulations on petition paper size, and for a lot of petitions, the language is too long to fit on an index card.
@DR,
What is a SupCt?
How would the voter know that there was a potential initiative?
I toss junk mail. Who would pay for the flyer?
How would election officials know that John or Mary had signed this scrap of paper that looks like an offer with free fries.
SupCt = a State Supreme Court.
Gee – might the all knowing all seeing media take note of all filed inits — with a mere link to them ??
Duh.
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From above — voter FORMS — 4.25 x 5.5 inches — 4 per 8.5 x 11
I WANT [SUCH AND SUCH – NOMINATIONS/ISSUES] ON THE [DATE] BALLOTS.
ELECTOR SIG – PRINTED NAME – ADDRESS – DATE SIGNED
SIG for dummies = signature.
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Possible also Internet FORMS – if and when 100.00000 pct *secure*.
ADM Farragut modified phrase [see Battle of Mobile Bay] —
Damn the ANTI-Democracy MORONS – Full speed ahead.
@DR,
Why would the Supreme Court of Texas keep track of initiatives for San Antonio?
Who exactly is going to print these forms? Who exactly is going to distribute these forms? Who exactly is going to verify these forms?
Why would the Supreme Court of Texas keep track of initiatives for San Antonio?
Because the State Const will COMMAND them to do so — like any other COMMAND language in any State Const.
Party Hack SOS are now too evil corrupt.
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Who exactly is going to print these forms?
Some printer getting paid by the issue petition private folks.
Who exactly is going to distribute these forms?
Some distributor(s) getting paid by the issue petition private folks.
Who exactly is going to verify these forms?
The same olde stupid [SOS] State Secs of State [SOS II] and local govt clerks – and the courts if needed
Next juvenile high skoool questions ???
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Damn the ANTI-Democracy MORONS – Full speed ahead.
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OBVIOUS NOTE — If and when there is REAL PR, there will be major pressure on legis bodies to act on any *major* issue — so MUCH less need for voter issue petitions.
@DR,
Texas does not have the initiative. Why would the the Supreme Court of Texas be involved in a local matter?
Could the forms be distributed at the entrances of public libraries? Could persons make sure that the signer prints their name and writes their signature, and dates their signature, and prints their address of registation, not their mailing address? Could these persons collect the signatures and deliver them to the city officials?
@Andy and DR,
The Green Party qualification petition in Montana was posted on the party website. Anybody could print it out collect signatures and take those to the county clerk. That was what happened.
THE F-O-R-M-S COULD OBVIOUSLY BE POSTED ON LOCAL LIGHTPOLES [LIKE OTHER CAMPAIGN STUFF] —
GIVEN TO CATS AND DOGS TO DISTRIBUTE, PUT IN OLDE CRACKERJACK BOXES [ALONG WITH LAWYER LICENSES, ETC.]
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ALL STATES — VOTER PETITIONS FOR STATE CONSTS AND LAWS —
TO ALSO END THE EVIL POWER OF THE ANTI-DEMOCRACY GERRYMANDER OLIGARCHS
— ALONG WITH PR.
WHERE IS THE *ELECTION REFORM* PARTY ???
PLATFORM — ONLY CONST AMDTS FOR ELECTION REFORMS.
AT LEAST RED CA HAS SUCH VOTER PETITIONS-
IE TX IS THE LARGEST POP ANTI-DEMOCRACY STATE IN THE USA.
WHERE IS THE 2019 UNION ARMY TO LIBERATE THE FREE PEOPLE OF TEXAS ???
WILL JR LEAD SUCH 2019 UNION ARMY ???
OR RAISE AN 1836 TEXAS REV WAR ARMY – LIKE GEN. SAM HOUSTON ???
http://www.iandrinstitute.org/states.cfm
States with voter const amdt /law petits.
BUT ANTI-DEMOCRACY minority rule gerrymander hacks in many of such States trying to stop all petits.
The totally EVIL/CORRUPT SCOTUS gang of 5 let the gerrymander regimes continue — and get worse in the 27 June 2019 Rucho EVIL/CORRUPT OP.
TOTAL SETUP for Civil WAR II —
as with all the gerrymanders in 1860.
@DR,
So you agree that since Texas does not have the initiative, the Supreme Court of Texas would have nothing to do with an initiative in San Antonio. Bandit signs are illegal many places. Do you talk to cats, regardless whether or not they are circulating petitions? What about dogs? What about Dingo Rats?
Other than your personal germ phobia, is there any problem with circulating initiative petitions outside entrances to librariex?
The Texas regime can appoint JR to verify all local init petitions in ANTI-Democracy Texas.
The voter FORMS — 4.25 x 5.5 inches — 4 per 8.5 x 11– can also be distributed at those local courthouses loved by JR
— esp to the armies of plaintiffs, defendants, witnesses, etc. and even lawyers and judges having legal biz inside such courthouses.
Both circulators in public and e.g. distribution in newspapers, mailers, lightposts and so on should be allowed. The latter is effectively banned in states which require circulators to sign off on petitions and in some cases do so before a notary, presuming every page has a single circulator. Even if the signer and circulator could be the same person even fewer people will bother to sign twice, much less go to a notary to do it.
As for libraries there have been specific cases including Supreme Court. This ruling contradicts many past precedents.
@EN,
Many people don’t realize the legal significance of signing their name to a government document.
A circulator is taking an oath witnessed by notary. Any group gathering a large number of signatures is going to have the notaries available.
I think at this point even Demo Rep has acknowledged his simple forms could be distributed outside libraries.
@DR,
The county courthouse is the seat of government and well known meeting place. The county clerk would be available to check voter registrations.
County courthouses in urban areas are now very dangerous places – all sorts of possible targets by all sorts of criminals – even if next to [or even inside] a police station fortress.
IE about ZERO URBAN folks say — meet/see you at the XYZ county courthouse in big city ZYX –
VERSUS AT ZYX BAR, FAST FOOD JOINT, ETC.
NOW GETTING SO EVIL BAD THAT ANY 3 OR MORE PERSONS MEETING MAY GET A FELON NUTCASE SHOOTER’S ATTENTION HAVING A BAAADE NUTCASE DAY.
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PETITION FORMS FOR BALLOT ACCESS- OFFICES / ISSUES IN ***ONE*** ELECTION PER CYCLE.
NO CAUCUSES, PRIMARIES AND CONVENTIONS.
People know that signing a petition puts an issue, candidate or party on the ballot. That’s not esoteric knowledge. There are no other legal consequences besides signing falsely on behalf of someone else. People should be free to distribute petitions as mailers, inserts in newspapers, outside the library or courthouse, passed around from one person to the next, left on a table at a business, stapled to a lightpost or bulletin board, and so on. Some of these methods are precluded by having petitioner signoffs and notaries, and some are precluded by unreasonable restrictions on where petitioners may gather signatures.
@EN,
People put their name on all kinds of lists. 60% is a good yield when you have professional circulators. What sort of yield will there be when there is a stack at the airport where millions of non-residents might sign them.
I favor placing candidates on the ballot by personal appearance, as is done in Zambia, along with a reasonable percentage (0.1% of previous gubernatorial vote).
U.S. District Court Judge is a complete idiot. What planet is this guy from where the area around public libraries is not public fora?
How about stacks of 4.25 x 5.5 FORMS at local stores – food, fast food, bars, movie houses, doctors, and even lawyers, etc. — each for a small rent-some-space/volume fee by/for store operators ???
@DR,
How are these blank forms going to be filled out and get to the election officials?
Gee- could the Electors-Voters fill out the forms and return them to a return address on the form [or even to a local store having a jar/box for the forms] ???
Then onward to signature/address verification by the regime.
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PR and AppV and TOTSOP
“What sort of yield will there be when there is a stack at the airport where millions of non-residents might sign them.” Does it matter? That will be the proponents problem in wasting printing costs and time in reviewing them.
Ironically you advocate the exact same thing by calling for petitions to be distributed or handed out and not have a professional circulator help the voter fill it out correctly before taking the form back and delivering it to the proponent or petition contract company.
“I favor placing candidates on the ballot by personal appearance, as is done in Zambia, along with a reasonable percentage (0.1% of previous gubernatorial vote).
….
How about stacks of 4.25 x 5.5 FORMS at local stores – food, fast food, bars, movie houses, doctors, and even lawyers, etc. — each for a small rent-some-space/volume fee by/for store operators ???”
Make up your mind, which do you favor?
I favor letting issue proponents, parties and candidates try all these different ways of getting signatures and seeing which is most effective. Typically that has usually been hiring professional petitioners to gather signatures at a per signature pay rate in public places. That may or may not always be the case. For gerrymandered districts door to door is often more effective. Public places are becoming more difficult to petition in, so the most effective way to gather signatures may change as time goes on.
@DR,
What jar? Wouldn’t that be an in-kind contribution? Business owners shy away from political controversy.
How would these forms be “returned” and to whom.
@EN,
You seem to be conflating me with Demo Rep.
DON’T DO THIS AGAIN
@Paul,
You are mixing me up with Demo Rep.
I favor eliminating petitions entirely. I favor eliminating privileged status for political parties. All candidates would qualify the same way.
Instead of a petition, supporters would appear at the courthouse and be counted by election officials. The number required would be substantially less than typical petitions, 0.1% of gubernatorial vote.
For Alabama that would be 590 voters for statewide candidates. For a House District, around 6. Since the district in Autauga County probably had a bit higher turnout (suburbs), it might need 8 or 10 supporters.
Since all candidates qualify as individuals, there would be no parisan primaries or primary runoffs. There could either be a general election with runoff as necessary (Louisiana open primary or Texas special elections), or Top 2 (Nebraska legislature or Washington state).
JR-
What jar? Wouldn’t that be an in-kind contribution? Business owners shy away from political controversy.
How would these forms be “returned” and to whom.
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Jar- HACKS can NOT obstruct *self-enforcing* const amdt.
Postal snail Return Address of init pet HQ is on each 4.25 x 5.5 FORM.
The store folks might get a small fee for mass mailing the jar FORMS to init pet HQ.
Next junior high skoool question ???
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Save Democracy
PR and AppV and TOTSOP — ALL *self-enforcing*.
Jim,
Apologies for the mistake. Demo Rep has however in the past opined that circulators should be be required, and should be required to sign off and notarize petitions and be held to various criteria. I may be mistaken but I thought you did as well. It may just be faulty memory here.
Paying 590 people to appear at a courthouse and claim to be supporters sounds affordable. Far more so than paying for the collection of around 80-100,000 signatures, for sure. Your top two scheme would not be so bad either if the runoff was not automatic. That is, if a majority winner would be elected then and there, and only a plurality winner would go to a runoff.